Talk:The Torah instruction of the Kohanim

Incomplete

please note the article is incomplete as is and (hopefully) will be completed soon--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

What is the subject of the article? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

The Torah instruction of the Kohanim → instruction of the people by the priests (or something similar) – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Evidently needs moving per WP:EN, WP:CAPS, WP:RS, but to what? This is one of the last of these title/essay fixes from the same editor. Except that this one doesn't appear to have a corresponding article in he.wikipedia to provide guidance of what the English should be. All 44 sources are Hebrew language WP:primary sources so no help there either. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
• The title needs to state which religion, directly or by using a specifically Jewish word. Priests of many religions instruct people. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:HE, Hebrew article titles are acceptable. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 03:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• The phrase is not about the Torah instructing the priests, as the current title suggests. Rather, it refers to the authority of the priests to instruct the people in the Torah. I suggest, "The Torah belongs to the priests". This is a more literal translation than either the current or the proposed form. Here is an explanation: "The Torah belongs to the priest, as virtue of judgment belongs to the king, or wisdom to the wise man, and vision and message to the prophet." Kauffner (talk) 10:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
• Suggest Torah instruction by the Kohanim. Thisw appears to express its content. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I Agree with Peterkingiron suggested name change to "Torah instruction by the Kohanim"--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 19:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Peterkingiron, thanks for your suggestion but since Torah = instruction in many translations, that would be an oxymoron; the Instruction instruction by the priests. See Entering Torah: Prefaces to the Weekly Torah Portion p143 by Reuven Hammer - 2009 "In ancient days the book was known as Torat Kohanim (The Instruction of the priests). If so, of what value is it for those who are not kohanim? Yet although it contains instructions for the priests, it is not intended solely for them. ..." However in a academic source such as Priestly rites and prophetic rage: post-exilic prophetic critique p114 by Lena-Sofia Tiemeyer - 2006 we find "The command given to the priests to provide instruction: Mention of the priests' teaching obligations is found in various biblical material. ... and to teach the Mosaic Law to the people of Israel" ... cites Leviticus 10:10-11 in Hebrew, which is the source of the Hebrew behind this article title. As for priests prior to 70CE, priests are always called priests not kohens in sources relating to Ancient Israel. Check Google Books or Google Scholar and see. But even if they weren't, WP:UE doesn't require that English be in the majority, it only requires that English exist. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

That's false. Going to WP:Article titles#English-language titles, it says "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language. However, it must be remembered that the English language contains many loan words and phrases taken from other languages. If a word or phrase (originally taken from some other language) is commonly used by English language sources, it can be considered to be an English language word or phrase (example: Coup d'état)."

Which seems to contradict your statement that "it only requires that English exist." Since you've clearly read the rules (since you keep citing them as defense of your unnecessary and disruptive edits), would you care to explain how we are to reconcile WP:AGF and your misrepresentation of Wikipedia rules? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Please read what I said. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:23, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose move and keep article as is per Lisa. The problem is that In ictu has come along with motions for sweeping changes like this all over the place that has just engendered WP:DISRUPT and near WP:WAR more than anything else. More WP:CONSENSUS is required otherwise such suggested changes just amount to being railroaded into In ictu's WP:POV. So let's all ease up and make improvements to the articles' WP:CONTENT rather than quibble over headings that can easily be accommodated by WP:REDIRECTS! See Category:Hebrew words and phrases for thousands of instances where transliterated Hebrew language words are legitimately used in WP articles. IZAK (talk) 05:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader," according to WP:UE. Kauffner (talk) 08:02, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose name change (other than my 12/2 comments above), as per IZAK's bold analysis of In ictu oculi's continuous wasting of all of our time.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 19:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Improving content of article

Leaving aside the WP:Article title issue for a moment, the article also needs a content improvement. I've added the article to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy‎. Which may not be the right place. What is needed are contributing editors rather than just comment. But anyway, maybe comment will include helpful suggestions. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I actually couldn't get the thing to add. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

More on the title

Despite the outcome of the RM, something still has be done about this title. It's grammatically incorrect the way it is. How about The Torah belongs to the kohen? Those who think that "kohen" should be capitalized should look here. Kauffner (talk) 03:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

This is the problem of writing an OR article in English using primary sources not in English. In English secondary sources it turns out it relates to the instructions of the priests (per WP:RS. I have interlinked to he:תורת כהנים‎ (torat kohanim) and have added some secondary WP:PSTS in lede and first couple of paras. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)