Talk:The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle

Suspected copyvio reverted

NHSavage recently merged a plot summary originally contributed by 24.127.101.24 into this article. I have tentatively reverted the merge, since the style (including the presence of review quotes) makes me suspect the text may have been copied from a back cover blurb or an advertisement. However, I have been unable to find a matching original on the web, so I have no actual evidence of this being a copyright violation, just a personal hunch.

The original unmerged version by 24.127.101.24 can be found here. If you recognize the source, please let me know. If you are, in fact, the original author of the text, please say so. In that case I have nothing against including it in the article. Any (non-copyvio) improvements to the current version are also welcome. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

All this material is original (I wrote it). The quotations were indeed from the book cover and were cited accordingly, please delete if this is against the rules. I do believe, however, that the last sentence of my review should be preserved which follows those cited reviews.

(An observation - it is strange that such a fuss is made over cited reviews given the ownership of all our Wikipedia entries by (effectively) a single individual). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.127.101.24 (talk) 04:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article has many punctuational and capitilizational errors. Having read the book, the information presented in this article is impeccable in its accuracy, but this is overshadowed by the general messiness. The mistakes should be promptly recitified if possible.

Cleanup (continued)

I neglected to note in my first post that these mistakes are most probably the result of vandalization rather than the original author.

for cleanup, this article was too long. Darthdj31 (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Charlotte doyle.jpg

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BetacommandBot 07:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Charlotte's father

Charlott's father was described in this article as tyrannous, though it is never mentioned in the book. I changed the word to ardent, which is mentioned in the chapter called "An Important Warning" in the following sentence: "My father, an ardent believer in regularity and order..."--Idontknow610 13:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)idontknow610

Intensive Cleanup Required

The "Character" section really needs to get cleaned up badly. For example, Zachariah's description is MORE THAN 40 continuous lines long WITHOUT any pauses or paragraphes. It is totally unreadable and confusing. Same thing for Captain Andrew Jaggery, Barlow, Ewing, and many more. Moreover, it is quite surprising to see that the main character, Charlotte, Doyle, has only 4 lines to describe her, whereas some secondary characters have 10 times more... Finally, do we REALLY need 24 character descriptions??? It is quite a lot.. At first glance, it seems that this article is not about the book, but rather the book's characters considering that this article itself is composed of 80% characters description and 20% infos about the book... it is not normal... Jolenine (Talk - Contribs) 03:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There are quite a lot of characters mentioned (many of whom have very long descriptions), which overwhelms the reader. I would suggest including only Charlotte, one section for her family (including servants), a couple of the more major shipmen (with shortened descriptions), and then a section on the rest of the shipmen. Most of the details about the shipmen and family could be fit in a revised description of the plot. The section with the awards at the top could be combined with some information about the books development and sales, as well as the mention of the movie adaption (that would fit very well after a paragraph discussing the sales and awards of the book, IMHO). To replace them at the beginning could be a short thing just telling the author, the general storyline (where it is set, who is the main character, etc.), and a general mention of the sales/awards of the book (the response to the book). 76.195.210.125 (talk) 02:22, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It actually probably not as daunting a task as it looks. The main problem (for the character section) is that each major character's description is basically a plot summary of the entire book. There's a lot of repetition of plot elements and insignificant details. The article's bloat would be greatly shortened just by removing the repeated mentions of plot elements. 76.195.210.125 (talk) 02:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

im thinkin that too- wow- charlotte doyle's profile is lest than all the crews i'll try to fix that. Darthdj31 (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

ok i cleaned it a little. people might want to add stuff though. Darthdj31 (talk) 22:55, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I have done further clean-up. Taking a look at some Featured/Good Articles, such as Watership Down and Lord of the Rings only the most important characters are generally listed with a short summary, so this was the model I went with. 16:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The True Confessions

Regarding the title, is this book in fact based on a true story? Harksaw (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I would consider that to be unlikely. It is called "true confessions" because the setting of the story a cover up story was given (thus, this is the "true" story of what happened).76.195.210.125 (talk) 02:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Definetly no-Avi writes mostly fiction, and anyways, the Seahawk isn't a real ship, unless by coincidence. it can be classified as historical fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darthdj31 (talk • contribs) 01:06, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Fan Perspective

I'm returning to Wikipedia after a long absence, but it's my understanding that Wikipedia is not for plot only description of fictional works. If that's the case then this article needs radical reformation.Barkeep49 (talk) 15:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

True. That's probably the main reason why the article is a stub. We've got enough information on the plot and characters (it still needs cleanup and referencing and all, but it mostly summarizes the book enough for encyclopedic understanding), but we have very little information about its writing or response. Let's look at another article on a book, which is understandably more thoroughly done: The_Lord_of_the_Rings There's a plot synopsis like in this article (with roughly the same level of detail), then a short list of characters (wish we could slim this one's character section down to that length - they do have the advantage there that each character's themes and emotions can be described in more detail in other pages - same with less important characters).

Then there's Background and Writing sections (some information about Avi, perhaps from here could help - maybe the official website has some information?). There's a section about Influences, and later one about Legacy (both are unlikely to be as important for this writing).

Publication History would be a useful fact, as well as enough Reception (awards, details about awarding, how it sold, reviews...) to separate out the movie adaption into its own part.76.195.210.125 (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

What's Next?

The page is in very different shape than it was a month ago. I would love to see the page get to GA status. What do people think still needs to happen to reach that status?Barkeep49 (talk) 15:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

a ton of people edited it, including me, but one user did a very good cleanup for the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darthdj31 (talk • contribs) 04:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks like we'd just need to double check the images and references (to make sure they are the best we can use), edit the plot and character sections a little more for clarity (it's improved a lot, but I think we could still improve it), and add in any more details about the reception or themes that we can discover. It's illustrated pretty well for what it is (if there's any good picture for reception - images of it being awarded or sold in some special way, or images of the author talking about it or something like that - that might add something). As long as the images have all their paperwork right, I think we're pretty good on that regard. It's not especially unstable (I'm pretty sure we're all fairly okay with the content - no edit warring or controversial stances on the topic). It looks fairly neutral (did anyone seriously criticize the book? If so, we should probably add that view.), and cites the opinions given. We've gotten most every aspect we know about the book in the article (without going into too much detail in character or plot descriptions). The things described and citation usage match up to the usage in articles like Lord of the Rings and Watership Down (although at a much smaller scale, and without some categories that we simply lack the information for). The spelling and grammar is pretty good, and it's fairly clear.--76.195.210.125 (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Great comment. I'm willing to do some picture looking and will see if I can find some of the pictures you described. I'd been having a hard time thinking of what kind of illustrations to include (I've spent a lot of time trying to find a picture of a round robin, with-out success). As for the negative critical reviews I've read quite a few others I didn't cite anywhere because they were repetitive, but found zero critical reviews. I found one off hand comment to Charlotte Doyle being a banned book, but haven't been able to substantiate that. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Assessment

As requested at WikiProject Children's literature, I have assessed this article and improved its rating to B class. For suggestions on how to improve this article further, I suggest you examine the Good Article criteria or request a peer review. strdst_grl (call me Stardust) 14:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Carbrera (talk · contribs) 21:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

• The book cover image requires an alt description, so please add one
• Rest is great

Lead

• "The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle is a historical fiction novel by the American author Avi, published in 1990."

Plot synopsis

• Way too long for a GA; please severely reduce (I'd recommend cutting this particular plot summary in half.)
• However, what you do have has no spottable grammar mistakes, so try to maintain that please

Main characters

• Charlotte Doyle --> Character needs sourcing
• Captain Jaggery --> Character needs sourcing
• Zachariah --> Character needs sourcing
• Also no spottable grammar issues, just needs adequate sourcing

Reception

Paragraph 1

• "In its starred review of the book, Kirkus Reviews called it "tautly plotted, vividly narrated, carefully researched: a thrilling tale deepened by its sober look at attitudes that may have been more exaggerated in the past but that still persist".[1]" --> Any particular critic from Kirkus Reviews, or just Kirkus Reviews in general?
• "The Five Owls review journal noted the "innovative mixture of history and fiction" and said the book was "expertly crafted and consistently involving, it is sure to excite, enthrall, and challenge readers."[2]" --> "Cathryn Mercier of the Five Owls review journal noted the "innovative mixture of history and fiction" and said the book was "expertly crafted and consistently involving, it is sure to excite, enthrall, and challenge readers."[2]"
• "Booklist contended it was not just an adventure story, saying the dynamic between Charlotte and Zachariah "allows the story to rise above swashbuckling adventure, though that element is there too. From its riveting opening line...to its surprise ending, this is a story harder to forget."[4]" --> "Barbara Elleman, writing for Booklist, contended it was not just an adventure story, saying the dynamic between Charlotte and Zachariah "allows the story to rise above swashbuckling adventure, though that element is there too. From its riveting opening line...to its surprise ending, this is a story harder to forget."[4]"

Awards

• Great! :)

Film

• Also great!

End of GA Review:

A fairly decent article that just needs some additional attention; I will be placing said article on hold for seven days so it can received its needed attention. Thanks and good luck! Please contact me if you need anything. Cheers, Carbrera (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC).

Failing due to inactivity for over a week. Please renominate in the future for a different review from me. Thanks. Cheers, Carbrera (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC).

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Nova Chrysalia (talk · contribs) 05:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll review it later. Nova Chrysalia (Talk) 05:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

• Anything relevant mentioned in the previous review should be fixed.
  • I believe that has been done. If you feel something hasn't been let me know. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Keep all date formats the same, even if they are access dates.
  • Changed. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Is there any information about the development/background of this book? I've seen other GAs in the Children's Literature Wikiproject have this.
  • Good suggestion. Will need to see what I can find. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • @Nova Chrysalia: Had time/access to do some research. I found several new sources I can incorporate but they all are much more of the literary analysis variety. I've heard Avi speak about the development of this novel (20+ years ago) so I even know what information to look for but was completely unsuccessful in find anything in RS. Going on vacation today which will either give me extra time or none at all but wanted to update you with where things stood. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
      • If you couldn't find anything, just ignore this point. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 01:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
• Character list should be added back in. Some GAs do not cite character lists. (Or cite the book itself, that'll work too.)
  • I am going to have to respectfully pushback on this point. I have started removing them from Children's lit pages I'm editing following the guidance of MOS:NOVELS which says Most articles do not need this section. Instead, a finely crafted plot summary is used to introduce the characters to the reader. I have found that the character section is the most vandalized section, often subtly so (e.g. saying someone is the younger brother when they're the older brother) of the pages in Children's lit that I watch/edit and their removal decreases overall vandalism. If you think there's important information that was in the character section which hasn't been woven into the plot let me know and I will do my best to incorporate it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Nova Crystallis (Talk) 02:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• It takes place during the crossing of a ship from England to America in 1832. The book chronicles the evolution of the title character as she is pushed outside her naive existence and learns about life aboard a ship." Merge these two sentences.
  • Done
• Unlink the second mention of Providence, RI.
  • Done
• "forBooklist" Space needed.
  • Done
• Common Sense Media and Christian Science Monitor should be linked.
  • Done
• "stars, on" Remove comma.
  • Done
• "goodreads.com" Period needed at the end.
  • Changed to wikilink Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• In general, a sentence with references should be like "Sentence one.[ref] Sentence two." Some of the spacing is off on the reception.
  • Please confirm that this has been fixed. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• "The book's historical realism and ending has been criticized as part of a trend of unrealistic historical children's book award winners." This belongs in the next section a bit more.
  • Moved
• Any updates on the film?
  • No. I suspect it's been canceled but can't find any sources (reliable or otherwise) saying so. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• School library journal link is dead.
  • Updated
• Ref 18 needs a title.
  • Done.
• Are all covers designed by the same person?
  • No. Walsh was artist for that 1st edition cover.
    • Shouldn't that be mentioned (and referenced)? Nova Crystallis (Talk) 02:01, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
      • The only place the cover illustrator is mentioned is in the infobox. Is that where you want it? Does it make sense to just remove that there? The citations for this most likely are going to be editions of the book. Not opposed to this idea but do you have a model? I think that would be helpful for me in how to implement this suggestion. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
        • Something like this: "Janet Walsh (1st edition[ref])" Nova Crystallis (Talk) 02:34, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
          • That's easy enough for Walsh (and has been completed). Let me know if this change satisfies your concerns of if you were thinking more editions. A quick search reveals at least 12 distinct cover illustrations which seems like it would be quite unwieldy quickly in an infobox. I'm not opposed to doing work here (as some research would be required to source all the illustrations) but if you're looking for multiple citations and notations would again appreciate any example of a GA/FA doing this with this volume of covers so I can see how they did it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
            • It's good enough, now the other things... Nova Crystallis (Talk) 03:00, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

****So I might have read the comment wrong altogether. Are you just suggesting noting that Walsh was the illustrator for only the first 1 edition? If so happy to see how to clarify that within the infobox and to add citation to the book. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Several things to fix. Nova Chrysalia (Talk) 03:42, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Nova Chrysalia for the review. Have noted above what I've already fixed and will work on the remaining issues soon. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nova Chrysalia: Hi there. I have not forgotten about this. I did commit above to adding in some more information found during a source search, but which will not directly address the comment you made. I just want to confirm that is all you're waiting on or if there are other parts of this that you're looking for work on. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:03, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nova Chrysalia: The Theme section has now been written. Except for any other revisions spurred by comments of yours, I have no other intended edits to make at this time. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)