Talk:The Wandering Songstress

Sources

This was unsourced in the article.

"Zhou's performance of the song earned her instant popularity, and she quickly became one of China's most well-known singers."

If anyone can reference this, it can come back. --damiens.rf 02:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved back to The Wandering Songstress per WP:OR and WP:COMMONNAME. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:37, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

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The Wandering Song → The Wandering Songstress – There is no indication that the song is mistakenly called "The Wandering Songstress". That would be original research to prove that it is a mistake to call it that way. Even if it is also known as "The Wandering Song", we must call what it is commonly called: The Wandering Songstress. --George Ho (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

This is not original research. The name of song, 天涯歌, is mentioned in the original movie Street Angel. (To be exact, the restaurant scene) You can watch it in the Intenet Archive. Everyone can verify it. — HenryLi (Talk) 07:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Also if you read Chinese, you might be interested in the change.— HenryLi (Talk) 07:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Everyone interested in this topic, please verify the song in the movie. This is the genuine source of reference, not just those secondary source. — HenryLi (Talk) 07:55, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Still, per WP:Article title, "Wandering Songstress" (天涯歌女) is often used by many singers who sang this song and many other sources. I don't know how you verify 天涯歌女 as a "mistaken called" name; without source that verifies it as a mistake, I don't know how to convince you to change your mind. --George Ho (talk) 10:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• I declined a move protect request at WP:RFPP as being premature. I don't know Chinese, but read Japanese a bit, and I agree with HenryLi's reading of the kanji (to use the Japanese term). However, George Ho's larger point is correct - it doesn't really matter what the correct translation is if the reliable sourcing establishes that the song is called by another title in English. Counter-intuitive as it may seem, in is indeed original research to look at the movie, draw our own conclusion, then insert it into the article. I would support making the title The Wandering Songstress, and putting both readings and translations into the article. I would refrain from calling one or the other mistaken. Instead, I'd suggest something in the lead along the lines of 天涯歌女 "Wandering Songstress", also referred to as 天涯歌 "Wandering Song". All this is subject to the caveat that I can't read the blog entry. It looks like someone is asking about the change in names? Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 17:41, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, no consensus to move, no guidelines to support the move. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:34, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

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The Wandering Songstress → tian ya ge nu (song) – or tian ya ge nyu (song) or tian ya ge nv (song) — There is no reliable source yet about English translation. Although there was the previous discussion in its talk page, that discussion revolves WP:OR of original vs. common name in Chinese and English, not the English vs. Chinese. "dan dan you qing" is an accurate name more than any other English translation because I could not find sources that verify common English name. I don't think "The Wandering Songstress" is accurate fit at all because no other reliable sources could name it this way. --George Ho (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• more comment: I found following links:

  http://english.cri.cn/2246/2005-5-19/90@238373.htm: it says, "Singing Girl (tianya genu)"

  http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2004/8/29/features/8744075&sec=features "The Wandering Singer" — It said "Ni", not "Nu"; they must have made a typo (although sounds originally researched, I know that "Ni" is a wrong pinyin for a "girl").

  http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fx0uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vHsFAAAAIBAJ&dq=zhou%20xuan&pg=2448%2C4817107: It says: "Singer at Sky Edge"

  http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/232322.htm: It says: "The Wandering Songstress"

  http://english.eastday.com/eastday/englishedition/features/userobject1ai828450.html: "Singing Girl at the Edge of the World"

• In other words, these news sources may very and have less common names for "tian ya ge nu (song)". More to come. --George Ho (talk) 02:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
  • More sources

    "Wandering Songstress", mostly likely recent: [1] [2]

    "The Songstress of the World": http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2009/12/5/lifefocus/5225774&sec=lifefocus — it says, Nui, which is a typo of "Nu".

    (Untitled song): http://www.theage.com.au/news/film-reviews/lust-caution/2008/01/17/1200419935417.html?page=2

  • Maybe more next time. --George Ho (talk) 03:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment there's a Hong Kong film award listed, and HK has alot of English language press, what is it called there? 70.49.124.147 (talk) 07:14, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Confusion as to the precise English-language name is not a reason to use Chinese. WP:UE: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." The proposed name is simply the pinyin equivalent of "The Wandering Songstress" Kauffner (talk) 09:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
  • The policy also says: "If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage," use pinyin for Chinese song. Seriously, I found three (very few to me) for "Wandering Songstress"; the rest were used by one or none. Let's see guidelines WP:Naming conventions (Chinese) and WP:naming conventions (use English) --George Ho (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
    • The examples given for no established usage are "German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc." This is about diacritics. Pinyin song titles don't really fit into this group. Kauffner (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Uh... Well, I guess we both got non-diacritic pinyin and diacritic pinyin mixed up. The requested title doesn't have accent marks. Like dan dan you qing and shui diao ge tou, they do not contain accent marks. Instead, they are non-diacritic romanizations. Unfortunately for you, non-diacritic pinyin (or romanized Chinese) fit into the group... even though pinyin with diacritics don't, as you said. "Shui diao ge tou" and "dan dan you qing" are non-diacritic romanized titles that omit accent marks for easier use. I hope you remember that. See WP:Romanization. --George Ho (talk) 20:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Sorry for the confusion. What I meant is that the German-language name of a German politician will be the same as his English-language name, except possibly for an umlaut or ß character. So using a German-language personal name is quite different than using an untranslated song title. This song is given as "The Wandering Songstress" in The Wall Journal, Shanghai Daily, and Asia One News (Singapore Press). Kauffner (talk) 21:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: To be fair (or honestly fair or fairly honest), I think WP:OR applies accuracy and precision and correction and preference of English translations on foreign titles. Having sources say "the Wandering Songstress" is one thing, but to prefer one English title and denounce the other as incorrect or too long to be preferred is an "original research" for "Tian ya ge nu". Is "The Wandering Songstress" correct or preferred by consensus? That would be a problematic question, which brings us the translations of "tian ya ge nu". This question could lead to requested moves, such as Talk:Trollhunter#Requested move, which I thought was a close call and led me to create Talk:Trollhunter#Move to Trolljegeren. No sources have analyzed or reviewed EVERY translated title for tian ya ge nu. In fact, that's WP:OR to say that "The Wandering Songstress" should be the title based on sources and consensus of every requested moves, should not be the title because other prior English translations are more desirable, or should be the title of this article because other prior English translations are less desirable. Whew! My mind's exhausted. --George Ho (talk) 01:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
• More comment: Per talk by ‎Laniala in other discussion that is linked in other comment, even if sources are reliable, calling one source reliable more than others would be an original research. Calling one English title as accurate or desirable more than the other English title is an original research. In other words, whether seven sources or one source, concluding that "The Wandering Songstress" is more desirable and common than "The Songstress of the World" for a non-English song "tian ya ge nu" is an original research and an insult to intelligence and my Chinese heritage. That's final for now. Can this be speedy moved to "Tian ya ge nu (song)" in the light of those events? --George Ho (talk) 18:27, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 23:15, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The Wandering Songstress → ? – "Tianya genu" or "tianya genü"? Should diacritics be used? WP:DIACRITICS allows them for non-English works; WP:NC-ZH doesn't mention diacritics. There are too many English alternative titles, no matter how many sources use the current title. There is "Song title" section for English readers. WP:UE encourages a commonly-used English title, but is the current title commonly used? WP:COMMONNAMES discourages inaccurate name, and I don't know if the current name is accurate. In prior request, I think I made a lousy rationale about the romanization proposal; in fact, I had doubts. This time, I have researched the title and added in alternative titles. Tian ya (天涯) means "sky horizon" or "edge of the world". Original research is discouraged, and I wonder if tian ya also means "Wandering". Ge nu (歌女) means songstress or female singer. Regarding usage of current title, older sources usually don't use it, but newer sources may do. Relisted. BDD (talk) 23:36, 27 September 2013 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 05:52, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Tian ya ge nu and tian ya ge nü, since those are just bad pinyin forms in contrast to the proper Tianya Genü. Neutral on the use of the transliteration of the Chinese name. --Cold Season (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Modified rationale to make sense. --George Ho (talk) 20:59, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Pretty much any phrase can be translated in more than one way. The logic of this nomination turns the "use English" principle on its head. Who benefits from a title no one can read? The Wall Street Journal refers to this subject by the current title. 41.181.202.213 (talk) 04:26, 26 September 2013 (UTC) [blocked]
  • The article gets the song title from the album. --George Ho (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:SPA 41.181.202.213 = WP:DUCK, this time from South Africa but the roaming VPN has been producing results from Ireland, Holland, South Africa, where the familiar quack is unmistakable. This VPN is evidently becoming a fairly permanent issue with RMs and closers and participants are going to have to check contributions from real IP editors (we have 2 or 3 regulars) from sock evasion with just one editor. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• WP:PINYIN (a section of WP:NC-ZH) says, "the titles of Chinese entries should follow current academic conventions, which generally means Hanyu Pinyin without tone marks". The trema (or umlaut) is not a tone mark (note Tiānyá Gēnǚ vs. Tianya Genü) and should be shown (cf. Lüshunkou District, Nüshu script, Hong Fu Nü). Otherwise, it sounds like an article on singing slaves (歌奴). In addition, both words of a proper name should be capitalised, i.e., Tianya Genü, not Tianya genü (see 4.9.2). —  AjaxSmack  00:32, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
  • @AjaxSmack: WP:NC-ZH doesn't say capitalize songs and albums, like dandan youqing and changyou (album). It says capitalize people's names or "Railway/Expressway". And WP:NCCAPS doesn't mention capitalizing pinyin; just discouraging capitalization of English non-proper names. --George Ho (talk) 03:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
    • WP:NC-ZH doesn't say not to capitalise songs and albums either (e.g., Bubai de Lianren, Ye Hui Mei). But it does say to use pinyin except in certain cases and pinyin calls for the use of caps.(4.9.2) WP:NCCAPS doesn't advocate a specific practice for particular language but suggests using first English usage and then the conventions of the language in question which, in the case of pinyin, would to be to capitalise. —  AjaxSmack  00:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
      • @AjaxSmack: are you actually proposing Tianya Genü? because if so printed sources seem to support it. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• No, I am not supporting a move. The current English title seems quite common. I was just commenting on pinyin usage. —  AjaxSmack  03:15, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• I would oppose any pinyin-derived name other than Tianya Genü per AjaxSmack, considering the move rationale is to use pinyin transliteration in absence of a common name. The pinyin should be applied correctly. I'm still neutral on a move. --Cold Season (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support for Tianya Genü (as the standard en.wp toneless pinyin used for titles). Not massively enthused for pinyin names for any song/book, but this does seem to be getting into the territory of too many competing English names - almost as many as Wang Fei's Fuzao album - and not too confident in picking one, a bit like picking straws. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. No English language usage for "Tianya Genü" has been cited, but there are various sources for "The Wandering Songstress", including the Shanghai Lounge Divas album already linked to. Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC) WP:SOCK --BDD (talk) 23:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.