Talk:The Wheel of Time/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Regarding Books in series (so far):

I'd like to get public comment regarding this projected change before I make it.

I'd like to turn this list into a dry listing of canonical material already released or projected to be released, and include more detail on the following works, as well as hardcover vs. softcover editions and revisions, in a more detailed, separate bibliography page.

• Snow, the prologue to Winter's Heart, is included in the actual book.
• The same applies to Glimmers/Crossroads of Twilight
• I haven't read the New Spring novel yet, but my understanding is that it supercedes the novella in Legends
  • The New Spring Novel is a superset of the novella. The novella is really the last few chapters of the novel.

• • There are other significant differences between the novel and the novella. In the novella, for example, it is left nebulous whether Moiraine and Siuan are 'pillow-friends' or are just using that as a cover for their hunt for the Dragon Reborn. The novel leaves their relationship in less doubt. Also, in the novella Moiraine at one point specifically remembers the names 'Tam and Kari al'Thor and their son, Rand' from the lists of newborns born around the time of the battle. This was removed from the novel, apparently as Jordan feared it would give the identity of the Dragon Reborn away immediately to those who read New Spring before the main series (although frankly it is obvious from page 1 of Chapter 1 of The Eye of the World who the Dragon Reborn is).--Werthead 22:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• The Strike at Shayol Ghul, as mentioned, is included in The World of... reference book.
  • The full text of The Strike at Shayol Ghul is not included in The World of... book, just a summary of it.

Page numbers

• I just added the total page numbers of all the paperback editions (hardcover for KoD, since that's all I could find on Amazon). I'm tempted to turn the whole list into a table so it looks more wiki-like (with the prologue ebooks as footnotes below the table), but I'd like public comment first. --Gherald 03:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I have a paperback edition of KoD in my hand right now(figuratively). It still has 783 pages. I think your table idea sounds pretty good, also, and would make a nice addition if you're willing to do it. --McFaust 16:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Look at the Word Count for Lord of Chaos. It's the largest book page-wise, but the second smallest book word count wise? That's 100% wrong.

I can't believe some one has enough time on their hands to count words! :-D

Well the point is, publishers usually give those word counts out. I simply cannot believe the biggest book page wise has next to the lowest word count. The words are rather small in the paperback edition too.

"References and similarities to other literature, myth and legend" section

I think this has become unweildly and started reworking at User:Gherald/wotreferences. I'm not quite sure of the general flow yet, and there are some details to work out. --Gherald 04:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Regarding References

Page numbers don't necessarily coincide across different editions of tWoT books, so any references would have to be book.chapter-based until a definitive (possible combined) edition is released. With this in mind, should we begin including references for our articles, or hold off for now?

Perhaps you could link to the WoT Search Index, e.g.: http://dposey.no-ip.com/IdealSeek/IdealSeek.cgi?q=nynaeve+tug

Harry Potter ?

I have heard a few people compare Wheel of Time to Harry Potter. Is this accurate or worth mentioning? I see that similarities to LotR are mentioned.

This is the Confessor. Not sure how to indent, so just know that everything from here to my signature is my response.

Fairly accurate.

If nothing else, having the fortitude to weather six books of the Potter-verse and still giddily await book seven probably means you're capable of navigating & enjoying the tangled plotlines of the Wheel of Time series.

Because even *reading* the Wheel of Time requires a significant mental investment. As it stands now, the series is at least 7,000 pages long, and there have to be at least 200 individual characters which recur across two or more books. The Confessor 11:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

The Confessor - to see how to indent, just edit this section and check out what I did. For each needed indention just add a colon (:) to the beginning of the line.

To respond to the question, other than being the standard good vs. evil thing with a protagonist who finds out he has magical powers and joins the fight against all bad people, I don't really see any relationship. And that relationship is one of the most common in fantasy (if you turn magical powers into 'a special talent or ability' it becomes the most common basic story line period.) As for the length/complexity of the series, I don't know that that really counts as a similarity beyond coincidence. There are dozens of long complicated series that don't have any relationship to each other (see: Anne McCaffrey's Pern series, or L.E. Modessit, Jr.). Bornyesterday 12:12, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Pretty much everything has been compared to Harry Potter by people who've apparently started their reading life with that series. This is pretty overblown, as pretty much all written fiction in the world shares certain characteristics. Things such as a Hero character, Interesting Sidekicks and a Problem to solve are common elements. When you go down into specific genres, the similarities only increase. A comparison with LotR is probably more directly justified, and indeed it seems that some similarities between the two are intentional. All this is unimportant, or at most secondary. It's the actual Telling of the Story that makes fiction worth reading, not how many or which plot-elements, twists and tricks, taken from the writer's toolkit, are used. Jeroen 11:10, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

The comparison with the Lord of the Rings seems to be made much more commonly in the media and reviews, at least to this point, and LOTR is also the "holy grail" of this sort of fantasy which itself warrants mention. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:47, 2005 August 27 (UTC)

Well, you have to remember that fantasy literature, as a genre, is only a recent development after the initial popularity of LotR. Without Tolkien there would be none of the fantasy stories that we know today. And one of the big problems with the genre early on was that a vast majority of the stuff getting printed was a direct ripoff of LotR. Now, it's less common because people are very familiar with it, but as it is essentially the prototypical fantasy novel, if there is a fantasy novel that doesn't have some similarities or draw on the standard ideas presented in it, I'd be damned surprised. Bornyesterday 04:16, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I believe the only two places I've seen WoT compared to LotR are media reviews and wikipedia (whoever added it to the latter probably got the idea from the former). The Wheel of Time series does have some things in common with the Lord of the Rings, though as previously mentioned that's virtually a given in the genre. Harry Potter also has things in common with LotR, more than it does with Wheel of Time. In any event I'd vote for removing the LotR reference before adding a HP one. Robert Jordan also started writing Wheel of Time long before Harry Potter was published, so I doubt it has much if any influence on WoT. Perhaps we should ask the authors of the respective series if they think they have much in common or influenced eachother. KrisWood 00:02:28, 2005-09-08 (UTC)

Eye of the World contains a *painful* amount of similarities to the Lord of the Rings series. However, the series has diverged since then considerably, mostly by virtue of being many times longer and more complex. I think the LOTR references is valid, but not the HP one (except maybe in terms of fandom, but that's a meta-similarity that doesn't have a place in Wikipedia IMO). Nae'blis 22:54:38, 2005-09-08 (UTC)

I think Robert Jordan has publically admitted that the beginning of the Eye of the World is similar to LOTR. He based Two Rivers off of the Shire. I think most of the similarity with HP is that the bad guy in both is an evil being that formerly terrorized the world and is now making a come backIn both cases the characters are afraid of saying his real name. Other than that I don't see much similarity other than they're both of the same genre.

Jordan and Goodkind

... The bigger controversy within avid Wheel of Time fans is not so much discussions regarding comparisons with Harry Potter, but comparisons with the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. The latter was published a few years after the Wheel of Time, and many people feel that there are strong similarities; for example the Mord'Sith mirrors the Seanchan of the Wheel of Time, likewise the Sisters of the Light closely match Aes Sedai.

More specifically, the SoL are essentially Red Ajah, and the SoD are Black Ajah. But I think similarities in small details aren't really that important. They are both stereotypical good vs. evil, nobody to somebody underdog hero, and end of the world stories. And I say that as a fan of them both. Goodkind is clearly primarily focused on advancing his Randian social philosophy while presenting his storye, where Jordan is focused on telling the story without a clear socio-political statement in the book beyond the basic themes I already mentioned. The fact that there are similar aspects in each (or any other books) so long as it isn't a direct retelling of the same story is really unimportant to the discussion of the book. Nothing is written in a vacuum, but it is just as true that two different people can come up with similar ideas. Trying to catalogue similarities is one-thing, drawing lines of "this was written after that so this must have been influenced by that" is bound to be faulty. Bornyesterday 21:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd take it a step further and (for fear of offending SoT lovers, I mean no offense by this and am only stating my opinion) the SoT saga uses every single cliche ever seen in the fantasy genre and as such is bound to appear to be a ripoff of any single fantasy work, including both Wheel of Time AND Harry Potter, not to mention the LoTR. I don't think Goodkind so much ripped off Aes Sedai and Seanchan (and shadowhounds and who knows how many other things) from Jordan as he emulated the middle road of fantasy by incorporating a little of everything. Oddly enough the first book in the series was wonderfully refreshingly different despite its cliches it wasn't until Goodkind began churning out sequels that it began to look like WoT in any way shape or form.

I think there really are a lot of similarities between WoT and SoT (although WoT is much better throughout). Not just in the plot (that's bound to happen) but in the specific plot devices and props used. That things like the use of collars, which fulfil similar functions in both series (too similar for chance) and which appear nowhere else in any fantasy series. There is also attention drawn (as central themes) to prophecy, to swords (possessing an important difference to other swords belonging to other people) and to several other things which make the series similar. This includes things like both main characters using power instinctively, and using power that no or few others can (the others mainly being, in both cases, agents o the main villain - who again is suspiciously similar in both). The similarities undeniably stack up, beyond the bounds of chance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.229.251.98 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read Goodkind in a long time (the whole evil chicken thing just seemed insane), but I recolled noticing that sot uses the same currency and wot. --Samael775 22:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember where I saw it exactly but I know that I saw an interview online somewhere with Robert Jordan where he was asked about these similarities. In response he only suggested that the interviewer look at the publication dates of the books these concepts were introduced in. Each and every time an element of Wheel of Time is used in Sword of Truth, the publication date is after the date where that same concept was applied in Wheel of Time. Aside from this, SoT rips off just about every fantasy concept ever concieved at one point or another. The only book with anything remotely original in it is the first one. I could go on but SoT isn't really worth continued debate lol. KrisWood 18:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

External links

The external links section of this article is way too large, imo. This is an encyclopaedia, not free advertising space for forums and roleplay sites. I'm sure there's some website that has a good listing like that. (In fact, it might be linked already, but I'm not going to weed through 20 or so links to find it.) Can we just put that one in the external links section and remove all forums and RP sites? I'm fine with keeping links to further information on WoT, but the current list just doesn't work. rWd 22:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. Isn't there a Webring for WoT sites? At the least, breaking it out by 'type' would be a help... nae'blis _(talk) 15:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

As a stopgap measure, I broke it out into sub-sections today. It already is much easier to use, IMO. -- nae'blis _(talk) 21:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Nae'blis. ··· rWd · Talk ··· 08:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead and cleaned up some of the links for you. I left links to the most significant sites and removed those that are not very well known. I also added a link to The Wheel's Hub, a very good compendium of WoT links. There's further cleaning to be done later, but this will do for now.

Time

How much time has elapsed since the beginning of the Eye of the World and the end of Knife of Dreams?--Moosh88 05:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

About 3000 years or so. :) Excluding the prologue, the answer seems to be about 760 days, which is about 25 months. See [1]. Eric119 07:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

That's about two years then... I thought more time had passed like five.--Moosh88 21:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I think many people feel that way...everything that Rand has accomplished since the Stone of Tear seems a little far-fetched... -- nae'blis _(talk) 23:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Either the world is really small or Traveling really gets things done quickly. :-) Deco 01:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

So how old was Rand when he left the Two Rivers in the first book?--Moosh88 03:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Rand was born on Danu 2 (late 978 NE) - they left in early 998 NE (Winternight), so he was a little over 19 years old, if I can count right tonight. -- nae'blis _(talk) 03:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Lord of Chaos Length

The word count listed for Lord of Chaos (153,288) can't possibly be right. If that were the length, it would be far and away the shortest book in the series (other than New Spring). In fact, it's the longest book in the series (at least in terms of pages). I deleted the word count, since it's an obvious and glaring error, but I have no idea what the correct number is, so it's blank for the moment. If anyone has reliable info on word count, that'd be great... Jcb9 05:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Earth

Real world info is Mosk the Giant fought Elsbet Queen of All with a lance of fire which could strike anywhere in the world. There was a time when men traveled between the stars and when fire rained from the sky I am sure you can all understand this info is clearly rather near future sounding. Jamhaw 18:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

The similarities are much more advanced than that, but I think there's an article or entry somewhere else about it: Materese the Healer = Mother Teresa, Calian & Shivan = Kali and Shiva (Hindu gods), the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament in the Panarch's museum in Tanchico, reports of a spire in the Black Hills that sounds like a radio telescope and so on.--Werthead 22:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah but I don't know what happened to it it should be on this page anyway and it hade a few mistakes like Mosk fought merc when it actually fought Elsbet and the time with traveling through the stars well that seems awfully now or future and the fire raining from the sky makes me think of orbital bombardment or at least ICBM nukes.
• "Did Mosk the giant fight Elsbet Queen of all with a lance of fire that could reach anywhere in the world" Merc is never ever mentioned Jamhaw 16:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw
• Hey Chapter 20 wind rising what book is it I am talking about the Eye of the world From the two Rivers to be exact.

Video Game

How about we make an article on it I have never heard of it before so if anyone has played it or even heard of it before should write an article what was it called? Jamhaw 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

It was just called 'The Wheel of Time'. It was okay, nothing too great, but the architecture was really good and made the world come alive nicely. The game takes place in a Portal Stone dimension so nothing that happens in it effects the reality of the novels, which is a bit of a cop-out though. The biggest problem with it is that they were making a complex RPG but the publishers thought turning it into a first-person shooter would be a better idea. It works okay for what it is, but can be filed away under 'missed opportunity'.--Werthead 16:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC) We have a link to WotMUD why not the game I made an article on it. Jamhaw 18:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

Well its pretty stupid to reduce the use of the power to ter'angreal62.99.226.26 19:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)fade

References to ancient places

Put's far to much influence on east asia not enough on the main thing europe I would say seeing as how it is not very feudal it would be Late middle ages or even Renassiance also asia is clearly shara what with size slavery east silks spices closed borders except for little trading posts.

• Andor is on startrek maybe it is a reference to that.
• Wouldn't the Aiel be kind of like Scotland what with the clans and I believe thay have pipes for battles and funerals we have them for funerals in Canada which is because of the large amount of Scottish immigrants so maybe they are a reference to Scotland
• Also just why would it be later in time wouldn't it have to have all ready happened if thay have these things come on!

The Aiel would be some form of Celtic/Native American highbred people and trust me all countries of celtic origin have warsongs and pipes for funerals. i.e. Ireland=Tin Whistle Scotland=Bagpipes and i dont know what is used in Wales and North-Western France

Humour Parody

I think that since Uncyclopedia is hosted on WIkia and since it's a wiki and changable by anyone we should have a link for it. Oh yeah if Uncyclopedia can get a picture I am sure we can. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jamhaw (talk • contribs) # 12:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're asking for here, do you mean the abbreviated WoT summaries? -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well there are some but I believe we should work closer with Uncyclopedia and by the way how come they have a picture in there robert Jordan article? Jamhaw 15:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw
• The picture's there because Uncyclopedia doesn't really respect copyright law. Which is good in some ways, because it allows the wiki to do things that Wikipedia can't.

Hawkwing

I always thought of him as more of an Alexander the great I mean apart from names and a big sword he's got more in common with alexander. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jamhaw (talk • contribs) 11:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Names of the Forsaken

Is it worth mentioning that the names of several of the Forsaken are based on mythological creatures/persons? (Graendal/Grendel from Beowulf, Sammael/Samael the demon lord of old Hebrew legend, etc) Custodes 15:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was worth mentioning chances are Robert Jordan got inspiration for names from anything.

Small Inaccuracy

The text states: "The taint quickly overcame Lews Therin and his companions...", when, in fact it drove them mad instantly. My source is "The World of..."

I'd say that it did indeed quickly overcome them, then. -JC 22:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Another innacuracy. The premise states that the Wheel created/caused the Dragon due to the Dark One's release, but the Dragon was alive well before that. One could speculate, due to the action/reaction theme prevalent in the series, that the Dark One's "release" was caused by the Dragon's ascendance.

Isn't one of the more common themes in the books "The Wheel provides what is needed before we know it is needed"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.196.97.164 (talk) 03:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

References Please

The entire "references and similarities" section is entirely void of citations, and looks like original research. Please cite your sources --Samael775 00:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following text until it can be sourced: References and similarities

To ancient places

Perhaps the most obvious borrowing is the Aes Sedai symbol, which is a modified Yin-Yang symbol, solid white on one side, black on the other. The name Aes Sedai is suggestive of the Irish Aes Sidhe, or Aes Dana, despite Ireland's lack of proximity to East Asia. Other references of similar effect include the game of stones played by several of the characters, which is very much like Go. Another is the saying of the Borderlands: Death is lighter than a feather, but Duty is heavier than a mountain. This is an oft-quoted part of the code of the Samurai.

There are also similarities to various martial arts, especially with respect to sword-fighting techniques. In the books, the swordmasters practice and use specific moves that are representative of the behavior of animals and natural phenomena. Each of the moves has a stylized name which is very similar to many East Asian combat styles and traditions (for example: kung fu and samurai). Finally, perhaps most tellingly, the Sword Masters' swords are very similar to a katana. Mat Cauthon's weapon, a sword-tipped pole named an "Ashandarei", is also very similar to the naginata of Ancient Japan.

The city of Stone of Tear is similar to the Phoenician city of Tyre (in present-day Lebanon). Tear's position as an impregnable fortress and trade center echo the importance of Tyre, until it was conquered by Alexander the Great.

When creating names in the series, Jordan used names and words of foreign languages, religions, mythologies, such as Shai'tan, similar to the Arabic language name for Satan. The names of Trolloc clans (Dha'vol, Kho'bol, etc), is likewise reminsicent of devil, kobold, etc.

To other literature

Jordan includes several references to J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, such as an inn named "The Nine Rings" (chapter 21, The Great Hunt) and "The Nine Horse Hitch" (chapter 11, The Fires of Heaven), hinting at the rings that enslaved the Nine Riders who sought the One Ring at the Prancing Pony inn. A minor character, Karldin Manfor, uses the pseudonym "Underhill" (prologue, CoT), which is Frodo's traveling name in The Fellowship of the Ring. Perrin's name can be seen as an amalgam of the names of Merry and Pippin, two of Frodo's Hobbit companions. Also, Andor is a reference to Númenor in Tolkien's works; the original name of Númenor was Andor, meaning "Land of Gift" in Sindarin. North of Kandor on Randland's world map lie the Mountains of Dhoom, a reference to Tolkien's Mount Doom. And the book Eye of the World starts out in the town Emond's Field, near the Mountains of Mist, a reference to the Misty Mountains.

Indeed the structure of The Eye of the World can be seen as roughly analogous to the beginning of The Lord of the Rings, up until the point where the group of traveling companions gets separated. Both start in an isolated and agrarian village (Emond's Field/Hobbiton) at a time of celebration (Beltine/Birthday Party). The presence of evil in the village (Trollocs/One Ring) causes a group of young men to leave the village. They first travel to a small town where they are attacked at an inn, then escaping in through the countryside to some ancient ruins (Shadar Logoth/Amon Sul), where they are again attacked. At times they are accompanied by an experienced fighter skilled in tracking and the ways of the wild, as well as a wise magic user. Obviously there are many details that are different between the two stories, but the basic structure is strikingly similar until about halfway through The Eye of the World. Robert Jordan has in fact stated that he consciously intended the early chapters of The Eye of the World to evoke the Shire of Middle-earth in Tolkien's work.

The Aes Sedai have some similarities with the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood of the Dune series; both are orders of women with special powers, both seek to influence politics and powerful individuals, and both are sometimes referred to by other characters as "witches" (however Jordan modeled the Aes Sedai after nuns, and Herbert modeled the Bene Gesserit after the Jesuit Order). The Dragon Reborn, like the Kwisatz Haderach, is a male with powers normally reserved for the women of those organizations. Men could and still channel, though because of the taint on the saidin, they are often "gentled" before the talent blooms and they begin to go mad. The Aiel bear many similarities to the Fremen of "Dune", the most obvious being the environment that shaped them into the most formidable warriors in the known world. The Aiel Wise Ones are similar to the Fremen Reverend Mothers in that they serve the same function as Aes Sedai or Bene Gesserits, but forsake the connection to the sisterhood.

Aes Sedai also show some minor similarities to robots in Isaac Asimov's Robot Series, in that the Three Oaths protect ordinary people from their otherwise overwhelming power, similar to the Three Laws of Robotics in Asimov's series.

In Crossroads of Twilight (Chapter 16) the similarities between the mountain/tower combinations of WoT and LoTR are detailed: "People who lived in the region were accustomed to Dragonmount dominating the sky, much as they were accustomed to the White Tower looming above the city walls and visible for miles." (p.481). Lord of the Rings also features as mountain/tower combination with the Mount Doom (a.k.a. Orodruin) and Isengard, (as well as with Mount Doom and Sauron's Tower in Peter Jackson's movie trilogy).

To myth and legend

The series also borrows from various myths and legends, most notably Arthurian legend, Irish mythology, Hindu and Norse mythic cycles, and even Christian imagery (the Dragon Reborn, principal hero of the piece, has over the course of the story received wounds similar to stigmata). Noticeably, many of the borrowed names are nearly the same as Arthurian legend:

• Artur Paendrag — Arthur Pendragon
• Egwene al'Vere — Gwynevere
• Elayne — Elaine
• Galad — Galahad
• Gawyn — Gawain
• Mordeth — Mordred
• Morgase — Morgause
• Tigraine — Igraine
• Nynaeve — Nyneve (the Lady of the Lake)
• Tar Valon - Avalon
• Thom Merillin - Merlin
• Caemlyn - Camelot or Camlann

Shai'tan is a modification of Shaitan, the Jinn thrown out of paradise for refusing to bow to Adam in the Islamic tradition. It may also refer to ha'satan in the book of Job from the Juedo-Christian Bible. Ha'satan, used as both a noun and verb in Job, means "the adversary" in Hebrew. Shayol Ghul, the gateway to Shai'tan's prison, is borrowed from Sheol, the abode of the dead in the Hebrew Bible.

Sa'angreal is clearly borrowed from Sangreal, the Holy Grail, while al'Thor proving that he is the Dragon Reborn by pulling the sword (Callandor) out of the Stone (of Tear) is highly reminiscent of Arthurian legend.

Tarmon Gai'don, the term used throughout the books to refer to the Last Battle or culminative struggle between good and evil, is clearly borrowed from Armageddon, the Biblical term for the location of the last great battle at the end of time.

The three central ta'veren of the story also draw from religious mythology. Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, is confirmed by author Robert Jordan as sharing traits with the Norse god Tyr, Mat Cauthon is clearly based on Odin, and Perrin Aybara draws inspiration from the Slavic god Perun. The three also embody aspects of the Hindu "Creator-Preserver-Destroyer" trimurti.

There are also several indications that the central character, Rand al'Thor, is patterned after Jesus Christ. He has several stigmata (namely, marks in his hands/wrists and a spear wound in his side). Prophecy says he will give his life to save the world. And he will fight in the final battle, Tarmon Gai'don. There is also reference to his rebirth (to live, he must die), another parallel with Christ.

The Hindu gods Shiva and Kali are referenced in the series: "Shivan the Hunter, behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, him and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side." — Chapter 21 of A Crown of Swords. The Japanese sun goddess Amaterasu is also referenced in the same passage: "Amarasu, riding out of the sun with a sword of fire", and again in Knife of Dreams, Chapter 24: "Amaresu herself, carrying the Sword of the Sun into battle."

Rand is in love with three women, Elayne (who can channel), Aviendha (who can channel), and Min (who sees auras around people, sometimes foretelling the future). In Arthurian legend, when Arthur was wounded by Mordred, three witches came and bore him away to the Avalon.

The invasion of the Seanchan could be correlated to the invasion of the Saxons to the English continent, putting them at war with the Celtic tribes there, one of which may have been led by King Arthur. Alternately, the Seanchan could refer to Asiatic peoples - this is supported by the idea that the Seanchan shave portions of their head, have a deeply entrenched honor system and bureaucracy, and that they have tilted eyes. The Asiatic view is supported by their armor, dress, and imperial system. Alternate allegoric analyses draw connections to the Roman Empire. Many conclude the Seanchan were derived from a variety of real world sources.

The Wheel of Time also draws from Norse legend with the similarities between the female half of the One Power (Saidar). According to Nordic mythology, there existed a magic-like power named saiđr, which was wielded by unsavory females. These women, regarded as outsiders (similar to the Aes Sedai) were not considered normal components of society. Furthermore, the dichotomy between wolves and "Shadow Brothers" can be traced to the Nordic legends, as they held lore of both the Wolf and the Varg, which were considered two sides of the same essence. The Varg was the incarnation of the evil tendencies of the wolf. It could be considered that Perrin's descent into his feral connection with wolves is mirrored in the Epic of Gilgamesh, in which the character Enkidu is a primal character who clothes himself in animal skins, and whose death prompts Gilgamesh to do the same.

In Knife of Dreams, Perrin calls on two Two Rivers men to show off their archery abilities. One of them is called Tell, probably inspired by William Tell. In addition, the founder of the Whitecloaks is Lothair Mantelar, likely inspired by Martin Luther.

Robert Jordan himself once said: "The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends, and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel." [America Online chat, June 28, 1996]

To Jungian Archetypes

A number of Wheel of Time Characters fulfill the basic archetypes laid out by Carl Jung. In most cases different characters fulfill the same archetype, and one character can represent multiple concepts at the same time. Below are some of the most obvious examples.

• Rand al'Thor - the Übermensch ("Superman", the Omnipotent), the hero
• Matrim Cauthon - the Trickster
• Thom Merrilin - the senex ('Wise Old Man')
• Aran'gar (Bathamel) - the anima
• Egwene al'Vere - the 'Great Mother'

To our world

A number of references occur in The Eye of the World, Chapter 4:

• Queen Elizabeth: "Alsbet, queen of all" (changed to Elsbet in later editions)
• Ann Landers: "The Thousand Tales of Anla, the Wise Counselor"
• Mother Theresa: "Materese the Healer"
• John Glenn, The Eagle, Sally Ride or Salyut: "Tell us about Lenn," Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell about his daughter Salya walking among the stars."

And several more in The Shadow Rising:

• Mercedes-Benz hood ornament: "A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance she knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity." (Chapter 11, What lies hidden, p. 147)
• Moscow, America, ICBMs, superpowers: "Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?" (Chapter 20, Winds Rising)
• Gautama Buddha: "Ghoetam under the tree of life" (Chapter 24, Rhuidean, p. 277)

The intended impression is that the world in which the series is set might be our own world at some — probably later — point on The Wheel of Time. A list of more real-world inspirations can be found in The Wheel of Time FAQ, section 3.

--Samael775 14:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Indian flag reference

Removed reference to Indian flag in Literary concepts -> Eternity or Infinity motif - Indian flag does not contain the Hindu "Wheel of Law", but is rather a reference to the spinning wheel (i.e. for clothes) that was a symbol of Indian independence. If someone wants to contradict, please explain why. 160.83.32.14 11:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed template from top of page

I have no idea what it was doing up there in the first place; they belong at the bottom, and it was making the article look messy. It would be well replaced with a cover image of some of the books. Battle Ape 12:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who originally put template:wotnav next to the TOC, so you know who to blame. My thinking is the reader should be able to click through to any of the book articles without having to scroll down multiple times (5 in my case) before being presented with a list of links. See Dune (novel) which has a similar box with a more compact list of books. If you have suggestions for making sidebar version of wotnav that does not "make the article look messy", that would be fine. But it seems to me that wotnav in its current state is versatile enough to serve for both sidebar-like navigation and as a footer -- unlike template:lotr, for instance -- and I rather like the economy of it. --Gherald 12:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved it back to the bottom. Templates belong to the bottom of an article. C Ronald 16:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

New Spring - the Graphic Novel

Red Eagle Entertainment began publication of a Graphic Novel called "Robert Jordan's New Spring". Red Eagle Entertainment - New Spring

The 'comic books' were of very fine quality and gave vision to the places, people and events in the New Spring novel. However, after receiving only four issues, I got this email message from the publishers:

(received 6-2-2006)

"Dear New Spring Subscriber:

We hope that you have enjoyed our past issues of Robert Jordan's New Spring comic series. However, we have some important news to share with you concerning the future availability of this publication. As you may know, Red Eagle Entertainment is the publisher of New Spring, and is responsible for the printing and distribution of each issue.

The actual production of the New Spring comic series has been overseen by Dabel Brothers Production (DB Pro), who is responsible for the preparation of each issue, along with a team of independent artists, writers and colorists that they hire, supervise and manage.

From the beginning, New Spring has been beset by a series of production setbacks. Despite repeated efforts by DB Pro to manage these problems, the production delays have continued unabated and Red Eagle did not receive Issue No. 6 when due. Moreover, all availability targets for the remaining issues in the New Spring series have been missed. In addition, there have been major changes in the creative team over the past months, causing increased effort to maintain a consistent and quality look for the series.

As the publisher of New Spring, we sincerely apologize for all of these past delays. Red Eagle has been acutely sensitive to all of the concerns voiced by our direct subscribers, as well as by our retail customers, local comic shops and Diamond Comics, our U.S. distributor for New Spring.

We agree that these accumulated delays have become unacceptable. However, our contract for the publication of New Spring does not give Red Eagle the right to complete the New Spring series on its own or in tandem with another production partner. Moreover, our repeated efforts to reach a meaningful solution with DB Pro have been unsuccessful, as have our discussions with a representative of Robert Jordan.

With no reasonable alternative available, and after considerable reflection, Red Eagle is reluctantly announcing it will cease the publication of New Spring. While the cancellation of this comic series is a major disappointment for Red Eagle, our real concern is for the many fans around the world that will be deprived of the experience of reading the final installments of the New Spring story.

We truly regret that we do not have the means to provide you with the final episodes of the New Spring comic. However, we promise you that Red Eagle will continue to vigorously explore any alternatives that will allow the company to complete the series in the soonest timeframe possible. If these efforts should prove unsuccessful, Red Eagle will announce a refund policy for any of its subscribers who have paid in advance for issues of New Spring that they did not receive.

Although future events are outside of our control, we remain open to any change in circumstances that may one day permit Red Eagle to complete the New Spring comic at the standards of quality and punctuality that fans of the series deserve.

We thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,

Red Eagle Entertainment"

While this series hasn't been completed, I certainly think this graphic novel should be included in the Wheel of Time series entry. What say you?

Agreed it should be mentioned, but the details should be under the New Spring entry, not the main Wheel of Time page. Mentioning it exists on the main page should be fine. In related news, the New Spring comics will be resuming publication within the next month or two, as Dabel Brothers will be completing the project with their new partners (Marvel Comics) and publishing the graphic novel themselves, with Robert Jordan's blessing. Red Eagle no longer have anything to do with the project.--Werthead 23:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Source of word counts?

I'm just curious: what is the source of the word counts for the books? I mean, page numbers are easy to come by, but word counts aren't exactly listed on the copyright page. :) RobertM525 19:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think someone emailed Tor Books and just asked for them, although they should have put the info up online somewhere so it can be verified. The only other way of doing it would be puting an ebook edition through a word-counter, but this is difficult with Wheel of Time as ebook editions do not exist at this time.--Werthead 23:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Role Playing game

Could someone write an article on it I've never played and I can't even find it on Amazon does it even exist. 216.174.135.175 16:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

If you are refering to the table-top roleplaying game based on d20 rules and released by Wizards of the Coast, I doubt it would interest you. I'm not surprised you can't find it on Amazon. Based on what I know of pen and paper dungeons and dragons (as opposed to computer RPGs) PNP is not of interest to the general public anymore (if it ever really was). I think it highly likely that if you had enough experience with D&D to be interested in this game, you wouldn't need much help finding it. Or put less tactfully, anyone nerd enough to care about playing a tabletop d20 game should know enough to find it. --Gherald 22:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of adding some info on the WoT RPG as, aside from the roleplaying element, there is a significant amount of information in the book that has not appeared elsewhere, even in the Big White Book. There are also city maps for Illian and Tear not seen elsewhere and, in the spin-off Prophecies of the Dragon book, there is also a map of Falme and information on other towns on Toman Head. As for the game itself, Robert Jordan was happy with the finished product but was not able to spare the time need to fact-check the planned expansions, resulting in a few errors creeping into the Prophecies of the Dragon book. After some discussion, Wizards of the Coast agreed not to pursue the project any further. Also, WotC's advertising and marketing for the game was rather low-key and sales were not as high as they should have been. I believe that Wizards' licence for the game lapsed in the last year or two (RJ mentioned it earlier in the year on his blog) and RJ is considering other offers to give the game a new home.--Werthead 23:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorted. I have radically expanded the Wheel of Time RPG article, featuring information on both the core rulebook and The Prophecies of the Dragon expansion. Let me know what you think!--Werthead 19:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Great work the article is huge now! All that has to be done now I think would be to get the cover Jamhaw 15:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

Humour and pardady

Where did it go I thought it was pretty useful. Jamhaw 15:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

A Memory of Light: 2009

In a recent interview with Forbes magazine[2], Tom Doherty confirmed that they are expecting Robert Jordan to hand in A Memory of Light at the end of 2008 for publication at the start of 2009, taking into account the delays caused by his illness.--Werthead 13:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time

This book was originally published in 1997, not 1998 as was stated in the text. It was re-released ina different cover in 1998, followed by a softcover release in 1999 and then a mass-market paperback (minus the illustrations apart from the maps) in 2000. These are the Orbit UK dates.--Werthead 13:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The 1997 date matches my book. Good work. --GargoyleMT 22:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The Forsaken

I just think that in general not enough info is given about the Forsaken's actions in the books, especially not those of Shaidar Haran?, and the guy who's name is Death in the Old Tongue 71.106.236.19 04:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Albert 8:44 pm, 12/14/06

Spoiler warning for section 'the Premise'

Until the very end of the first book it is not confirmed that Rand is the Dragon reborn, & it is only hinted at throughout the book, & as such I believe that 'the Premise' should hold a spoiler tag, or have the final sentence edited;

"His name is Rand al'Thor, and the series chronicles his and his friends' struggles: with international politics, with the One Power, and, of course, against the Shadow itself."

Had I read this article before having read the 1st book of the series, knowing that Rand was the Dragon reborn would have hampered the overall quality of the read of the book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.124.16.28 (talk) 19:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Neverwinter Nights module

The "Wheel of Time: The Third Age Online" mentioned in the external links section seems to be a fan-based recreation of the world using Neverwinter Nights. Is that right? I confused it for some official product. Is it appropriate to link here? An initial reading of WP:EL seems to indicate no (the 'symmetrically related' or promotion clauses seem most applicable). I'm sure the project has plenty of Google mojo (as well as non-Wikipedia outlets) if fans want to find it. I'd like to remove the URL, but would welcome some feedback. --GargoyleMT 00:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a fan-made server using Neverwinter Nights. However, it has been officially recognized by Bioware as one of their premier servers. I agree that a link to the forums is not necessary. A single link to the main site, however, is appropriate to this page because it does contain information on The Wheel of Time in and of itself, not exclusively as related to the game, while at the same time providing resource to the largest multi-user Wheel of Time based game of its type. --Ambystoma7729 08:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It has been recognized by Bioware, not Robert Jordan? If it's not an official product, is the information that it contains accurate? Is inclusion of information about the Wheel of Time enough to justify an external link (to any site)? Will users be confused and think the product is official (as I did)? The clause that I was referring to in WP:EL seems to have gone away, so that's no longer a concern. --GargoyleMT 20:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Internal links

There should be links to a lot of other concepts and webpages associated with TWoT in a See also section, such as Aes Sedai, damane, and so on. --zandperl 20:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

WoT Video Game

Hey do you think there will be a WoT video game for the consoles? Maybe perhapes a movie?

Moenbro 21:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I would love to see a game, but i doubt there would ever be a movie, unless they broke it up into 12 movies, I think a TV series would be more likely and better to portray the characters. There just isn't enough time in a movie to show all the characters well, for instance, anyone who read Eragon and then watched the movie probably has an idea of what I'm talking about.

Only relevant in America?

Well, I admittedly had never heard of such a book until an American mentioned it to me. Was it an international bestseller or not? --210.84.46.147 04:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

WOT series is pretty famous outside of America, as far as I know. It has been translated into over twenty-five languages, if that's any indication of its success, and it's a common staple of fantasy sections in the British Bookstore here (in Vienna), where shelf space is quite limited. Admittedly I have never checked the German bookstores here, but I was originally introduced to this book by a Bulgarian friend of mine.--Darkbane 00:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Das Rad der Zeit" is the German title (direct translation), the translated version has been splitted different than the original one, i.e. one English book into 2 or 3 translated ones, probably because the readers were lacking patience ;-) The translators have always been slower than my reading --Volker, 02:24 CEST, 19 May 2007

More likely because it's already horribly long, and it becomes about 3/2 longer in German. There are limitations on modern printing machines in terms of cost and efficiency. I dare not gaze upon the Russian edition. The German Wikipedia does mention that new German editions are not split up, so I guess printing is making some progress ^_^; --Darkbane ^talk 00:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Here in Belgium, you can find it in Dutch ánd in English in all major bookstores. So, yes. It's relevant to Europe

Well I'm in the UK and its available in pretty much every major bookstore, and I've also seen it given similar prominence in places such as Thailand and Australia. also, the many fan sites on the web for the series sem to encompass many nationalities, so yes, it is relevent outside America (just maybe not outside the fantasy fiction community). Tx17777 22:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering the number of Norwegian fans... It's definitely relevant out here too :) Mirithing 13:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)