Talk:The Whole World Is Watching (The Falcon and the Winter Soldier)

Episode reviews

Hi all. I haven't checked the draft in its current form, but I came across a few reviews that might be useful. I apologise if any I've included are already in use. I would add them myself but I haven't the patience.

As follows:

• Melrose, Kevin (April 9, 2021). "Falcon and Winter Soldier just destroyed Captain America". CBR. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.
• Keane, Sean (April 9, 2021). "Falcon and Winter Soldier episode 4 recap: New Captain America gets extreme". CNET. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.
• Shepherd, Jack (April 9, 2021). "Falcon and Winter Soldier episode 4 review: "A messy, action-packed ride"". GamesRadar+. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.
• Welch, Andy (April 9, 2021). "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode 4 recap: O Captain! Not my Captain!". The Guardian. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.
• Fullerton, Huw (April 9, 2021). "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode 4 review: Captain America's super-violence". Radio Times. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.
• Agnelo Periwal, Saahil (April 9, 2021). "The Falcon and The Winter Soldier episode 4: Dawn of "evil Captain America" as John Walker goes rogue after Lemar Hoskins' death". Sportskeeda. Archived from the original on April 9, 2021. Retrieved April 10, 2021.

Additionally, here is an official gallery release by Marvel that could be used to illustrate the article. Sean Stephens (talk) 08:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

"Fridging" of Lemar ?

Found several reviews (five so far on those tracked by RottenTomatoes, or around 23%) that mention Lemar Hoskins's (apparent) death in the context of "fridging", eg from this negative review: https://popculturemaniacs.com/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-the-whole-world-is-watching/ , or this otherwise positive review: https://www.vulture.com/article/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-episode-4-recap-the-whole-world-is-watching.html . Clearly it isn't wikipedia's place to comment on the validity of this criticism, but should the article acknowledge its existence? Edit: reasons for: (a) Has clearly led on its own to at least one of the "rotten" reviews, thus being a major reason for denying the episode a 100% fresh rating. (b) ties into aspects of the show's self-professed intention to focus on racial issues. Against: maybe too few reviews to be noteworthy yet? Jimthree60 (talk) 09:33, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Jimthree60: I did notice this to be a recurring criticism actually, a couple of the reviews above mention it. It's certainly something I feel would be a beneficial thing to include. I'm all for adding it if others agree with us both. Sean Stephens (talk) 10:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Jimthree60: The second source could certainly be cited in the critical response section. Maybe leave the first one since it looks like a blogpost. IronManCap (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I've added the source to the article. Thanks for bringing this up. IronManCap (talk) 21:16, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Complete

This draft is largely complete, Yes Episode-Specfic production details aren't available, but at least it's partially (75%) ready for mainspace. ChannelSpider (talk) 02:51, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

With no episode-specific information, this draft is WP:RUNOFTHEMILL and an unnecessary WP:CONTENTFORK, as the sign says at the top of the draft. There's WP:NORUSH for it to be moved to mainspace. —El Millo (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

What specific information the article needs to be converted as an article. Ulises1126 (talk) 12:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Ulises1126 Anything discussing moments from the episodes from creatives (or commentary pieces), filming elements, etc. Like, I feel there should most definitely be something regarding the ending shot of the episode with the bloody shield, but I have yet to find any articles from anyone involved with the show talking about that. Everything that currently exists in the article is largely covered in existing articles (especially the plot and production info), so that's why the article is still a WP:CONTENTFORK even if we "spruce" it up some to make it work for episode 4. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Is no critic comparing this to The Bells (Game of Thrones) because of showing a negative turn in one of the characters? Kailash29792 (talk) 16:09, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I doubt it, since this character has been disliked, and made to be disliked, since the beginning, unlike Daenerys. —El Millo (talk) 16:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93:, would this this be a worth inclusion in the Production > Writing section? Especially the part where Skogland and Russell explain that feeling powerless against the Dora Milaje is what drove John Walker to take the serum? — Starforce¹³ 16:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I said it "seemed" complete, not 100%.

Though, I read the top of the article. ChannelSpider (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo and Favre1fan93: Is this really a WP:CONTENTFORK, with the critical response included? I'm not so sure the reviews are WP:RUNOFTHEMILL, since WP:GNG states that "A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", which this draft currently seems to satisfy. Also, WP:RUNOFTHEMILL does not mention episode reviews as "run of the mill". IronManCap (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@IronManCap: Yes. This has stemmed from various recent discussions at WT:TV regarding the creation of episode articles and what should warrant them. While reviews can help establish notability, and is definitely a stepping stone towards it, an article shouldn't simply be made up of just reviews (and plot). It's considered ROTM because reviews are not unique to one episode (since most shows, at least genre ones, get reviews), whereas the specific episode info is unique to that episode. A notability guideline for TV is trying to be developed, and you can see the proposed wording for such here (but do note it is just in the drafting phase). Another good analogy that I saw used is think of a music album. The singles from it might get an article if there is coverage about its release, but not all 13 or so tracks will get, or should get, articles, even if reviews talk about them. And just to state again, no one is saying this can't be an article. We just need the info that will help justify it being one. I do find it odd that we haven't gotten at least something for this one like them in the past, and it's possible we won't get material until the "Assembled" episode. WP:NORUSH. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: Well the working policy you touted states "Having a significant number of reviews or other independently published commentary contributes to considering a television episode notable." This draft certainly has "a significant number of reviews" and "independently published commentary", distinguishing it from a mere WP:CONTENTFORK. I'm sure the draft could be improved when ep-specific production info is out, although this does seem to meet the basic standard for an article. The policy says it is "preferable" to have production info, but not mandatory as such. IronManCap (talk) 21:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

@IronManCap: Adam and Facu-el Millo ultimately found some good content to expand the article in the vein of what was needed to flesh out the production info below. Unfortunately it took about a week's time to get there, even though we did have the reviews to support such an article. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Ending

I have read the draft, but I don't see nothing about the ending. The ending scene of the episode shocked millions of viewers that day, and it was very discussed for the weeknd. We need to add information about the ending because it is very important part of the episode and maybe part of the show. Ulises1126 (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Ulises1126, I discussed this above. Is it comparable to GOT? Kailash29792 (talk) 16:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kailash29792: A source would be needed to compare it to GOT, otherwise it would be WP:OR. Ulises1126, sources could obviously be found discussing the ending, either for the production or critical response sections. If there are sources talking about the social media discussion of the scene, those can be included too. IronManCap (talk) 20:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I personally have not really found any usable content discussing the ending, which I find a bit surprising. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

This was the closest article I've found for anything about the ending to even potentially use. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Would this be appropriate for a "Commentary" or "Themes" section or something like that? —El Millo (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, but without any additional sourcing, I felt maybe just in "Writing" would work? I am honestly perplexed that based on my searching, I haven't found anything else on this for the episode. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

There certainly is more on the ending, but it's all part of reviews. —El Millo (talk) 17:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

So I guess an "Analysis" or "Themes" section would be more appropriate in this instance. Which if we get something started in that regards, I think that'd be a way to satisfy episode-specific info, since at least at this time, the production angle seems to be a dead end. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we will have to go in that direction for now. Surely we will get some discussion on this at some point even if they have decided not to talk about it right now for some reason. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Sources on comparisons between Walker and Rogers, with Civil War and The First Avenger shots mirrored: IndieWire, Mashable, ScreenCrush. —El Millo (talk) 22:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I have found some good stuff for writing and added it in, so we should be good for the mainspace now. I still think an analysis section would probably be good, here is a Men's Health article that may be useful for that as well. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)