Talk:Theodore Bikel

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Source says "Israel", not "Palestine"

The source cited about Bikel's early life uses "Israel", not "Palestine", as I mentioned (with the same link) in undoing the insertion of "Palestine" by one IP editor. I recently reverted another IP editor who re-inserted "Palestine" (with an empty edit summary).

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Thanks,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

British Mandate of Palestine is at least historically accurate, unlike the anachronism Israel in the Vassar news release or Palestine in the IP edits. Somebody should read his biography. Given his history and later politics, I would guess that joined a labor zionist community in the British Mandate. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if there are many people who have a clue what "British Mandate of Palestine" means. Under the British Mandate, Palestine and Transjordan were administered separately. The exact territory meant to be covered by the League of Nations mandate was a bit vague, but eventually it was discovered that it applied to areas east of the Jordan River as well. According to the Wikipedia article at "British Mandate of Palestine" -- and I have no idea how accurate that is -- the term applied to both areas together. After Jordan's independence in 1946, there was only Palestine. Also consider that a large part of the West Bank was part of Jordan at that time. A friend of mine from a Jewish family who was born there pre-1948 (in Palestine under the British Mandate) has no problem with having a passport with "Palestine" written on it, so I don't know why typing "Palestine" would be at all objectionable to anyone. But if, for some reason, you wanted to sidestep the whole issue, you could just say "Tel Aviv", since it looks like that's the city of the theater he was associated with. Neotarf (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Neotarf!

The source anachronistically says "Israel", so it is OR and a misrepresentation of the source to write "Palestine". I can guess that Bickel moved to what he regarded as Israel as a Labor Zionist.

That said, I dislike anachronisms and don't want to write "moved to Israel, according to Vassar College": College news-releases typically just repeat what the lecturer-performer gives them.

I proposed "British Mandate of Palestine" as an accurate term that I had thought should have been acceptable. If it is not acceptable, then we should write "moved to Israel, according to a news release from Vassar College", until somebody can find a higher quality more reliable source.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The source uses both Israel and Palestine, stating (in a place I missed) that he moved to Palestine but that he was acting with a company in Israel in 1945, which happened before 1948. I rephrased it, following good edits by Gatoclass, and expanded, using his autobiography.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:57, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

That was quick. I didn't expect anyone to read my remark for another 6 months or so. If you do a search for "British Mandate of Palestine" at Google books, it looks like "Palestine" is the standard (and neutral) name. See, for instance, One Palestine, complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate by Tom Śegev and Haim Watzman. Śegev writes for Ha'aretz, Israel's leading newspaper, so I don't see that the use of "Palestine" is at all controversial for the era of 1917 to 1948. On the other hand, looking at Alec Kirkbride's book from 1956, A Crackle of Thorns, he refers to "Palestine" and "Jordan" throughout, even though the book covers his experiences as a member of the British foreign service from 1918, when Jordan was still "Transjordan". So you could probably make a case for "Israel" if you wanted. Unfortunately, "British Mandate of Palestine" appears to be completely incorrect when referring to the geographical entity. There was some comment about it on the article's talk page, where they discovered the phrase was only used for the League of Nations action, but no one ever changed it. The error is repeated on Wikisource, in the introduction to the text of the document itself. Neotarf (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Neotarf!

It's fine to say "Palestine", which reflects the source(s). I explained the importance of the British passport, using his autobiography, rather quickly.

The two IPs made me nervous that there would be edit warring. I am glad that we all worked out a solution.

Best regards,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

References

Albums as primary sources

Record albums are primary sources, as long as the title, publisher and date are given. See, for example A Passover Story and A Taste of Chanukkah. These sources can be challenged if the fail verification, but are sufficient otherwise. μηδείς (talk) 20:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Date of Death

He died on July 21, 2015.

Now corrected per http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/theater/theodore-bikel-master-of-versatility-in-songs-roles-and-activism-dies-at-91.html?_r=0. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:11, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Someone has changed it back to July 20th once more, against the evidence of all the sources which mention a day or date of death. I will try changing it again to reflect the whole truth. Please keep watch on this for unwarranted reversions. Thanks. 86.112.58.46 (talk) 23:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

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Additional roles not mentioned in the filmography.

In one of the Babylon 5 movies, he credited with play Lenonn, a Minbari. But, he also had roles in TV.
He played Rabbi Yossel Koslov in the regular Babylon 5 series (episode- TKO), uncle to Susan Ivanova, played by Claudia Christian.
Also portrayed Worf's adopted father in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

IMDB article lists roles. I've also seen him in episodes of ST:TNG and B5.

The IMDB article lists more than 150 acting credits, how many should be in here? Only the movie roles, or the TV ones too?

2001:56A:F861:BD00:2CEA:C3DA:A68C:6710 (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

References