Talk:Theodore of Octodurum

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It turns out that this is quite complicated, it is possible to discuss the "three Theodoruses" in one page, but the "Ruodpertus legend" could easily also merit its own article. --dab (𒁳) 11:06, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure about the source of the "Grammont". I found it Orthodox online sources [1][2][3]. The only citable source I have is Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature

THEODORUS III, preferably called THEODULUS, the most famous, but also the most imperfectly authenticated, bishop of Valais of this name, is reputed to have lived in the time of Charlemagne. The only source for the assumption that he lived is the legend of St. Theodulus, by Ruodpert which runs as follows: Theodulus, of the noble family of Grammont, in Burgundy, was invited by Charlemagne to a general council which was to devise means for restoring his peace of mind[4]

But I can find no "Grammont in Burgundy", nor a Carolingian-era noble family of this name, nor do I find the alleged claim in the Ruodpert's text as edited in Acta Sanctorum (which is in Latin anyway, and it is anyone's guess what "Grammont" would become in Latin). So the question becomes, what is the source used by the Cyclopaedia article. --dab (𒁳) 10:09, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Correction, the claim is made in the Real-encyklopädie of 1862,[5] which is a couple of years older both than the English Cyclopaedia and the Acta Sanctorum edition. I can only assume that there is a manuscript version of the Ruodpertus text which mentions "Grammont in Burgundy", which was cited by Gelpke but not used by the editors of the Acta Sanctorum. The occasional reference to "Grammont" in English would be due to the Cyclopaedia article while in German the byname "Grammont" never became current. --dab (𒁳) 10:16, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

found it, it's in footnote a on p. 280. Gelpke made a mistake, it's not a "Burgundian family". The Ruodpertus text says Theodolus was in Burgundy. The editory add a footnote saying that "certain" liturgies make this saint a member of the baronial family of Gramont. The implication is not that this is a "Burgundian" family, or that this tradition is of the same age as Ruodpertus. The House of Gramont is Navarrese, and arises in the 12th century. Grandmont is also a village in Limousin, eponymous of the Grandmontines order, established in the 11th century. There is no evidence of a "baronial" family from there, but the implication intended by the liturgy is probably an association with that order(?) --dab (𒁳) 11:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)