Talk:Theories about Alexander the Great in the Quran/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article moving

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 11:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC) I have removed the article to its originary place, since it was moved by Irishpunktom without searching to previously build a consensus for the move. Aldux 17:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. I just moved it back to it's original title. -- Karl Meier 08:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It was moved per the discussions in the Talk:Dhul-Qarnayn page, which both of you have read. --Irishpunktom\^talk 19:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Much of this page duplicates content from Dhul-Qarnayn. I will remove the Quranic excerpts and put a link to the Dhul-Qarnayn page.--Thomas Arelatensis 00:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Paranthetical specification in the absence of disambiguization is POV. See similar discussion on Bushism which the concensus was to move to from Bushism (term). Masterdebater 07:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "(Theory)" should be removed from the title, as its sole purpose is to push a POV. I'll go further to say that there is no precedent or guideline for qualifying the subject of an article in its title, and to set such a precedent would be a mistake of the slippery-slope variety. Melchoir 07:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree too. The "(Theory)", was imposed by a single editor highly hostile to the whole argument without even trying to reach a consensus. Aldux 21:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Ethiopian version of the Alexander legend

A couple of places to start would include Edward Ullendorff's The Ethiopians, which has a chapter on Ge'ez/Ethiopian literature. The story itself has been translated by E.A. Wallis Budge, The Life and Exploits of Alexander the Great (London, 1896), but the problem is that Wallis Budge is notoriously sloppy & any commentary he provides needs to be handled with extreme care, used only after verifying it against other authorities -- or, perhaps best of all, simply ignored. If I find some more information, I'll add it here. -- llywrch (talk) 03:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Who is the anti-Islamist who wrote this artice? Its so anti-Islamic its ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.235.187.96 (talk) 17:31, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any specific arguments or just general a disagreement with everything presented here? -- Semaphoris (talk) 06:18, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Its very anti-Islamic. Like when the article talks about th two horned on from the book of Daniel, its obviously talking about Cyrus the great, not Alexander. I think you should also emphasize that the syriac texts the article is talking about is written AFTER the Quran. There are no texts before the Quran having every element of the Quranic account. Also, the base of this article seems like getting its sources from periods after the Quran, mainly the mid-evil era. And I think you should add that a group of Jews Asked Muhammed peace be upon him these questions, so you would have to look at the old testament to look at who was this "two horned one" which is said one time in the old testament , which is talking about Cyrus the great. And tis is about Alexander in the Quran, please take out th sleepers of the cave or make a new article. It seems like this article is taking a one sided approach. You you should also add western shcolars comments on how it is not Alxander in the Quran. Gero writes: Several features of the text [i.e., the Christian Legend] also occur in the Koranic narrative - the famous horns of Alexander, the journey to the west and then to the east, and of course the central theme of the gate, which will be opened at an apocalyptic Endzeit by divine command. But although this has been proposed by Nöldeke and often repeated since, the work also does not qualify as a direct source for the 'two-horned' Alexander of the Koran, at least not in its present form; recent investigations indicate an ex eventu knowledge of the Khazar invasion of Armenia in A.D. 629.

The prose legend (neshânâ) was then in turn the literary source of the Syriac metrical homily discourse attributed to Jacob of Sarug (sixth century) in the manuscripts. The poem, however, was actually written in the seventh century, shortly before the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia and Palestine. S. Gero, "The Legend Of Alexander The Great In The Christian Orient", Bulletin Of The John Rylands University Library Of Manchester, 1993, Volume 75, p. 7.

And what Wheeler says: .....it is preferable to uncover how and to what end the commentaries make use of elements of these earlier stories in their interpretation of Q 18:60-102. By interpreting Q 18:60-102 in light of these extra-Qur'anic stories, the commentators are able to show how Islam includes earlier stories and revelations. This approach, on the one hand, allows the commentaries to contend that these earlier stories are part of the revelation included in the Qur'an. On the other hand, the commentaries are in a position to claim that their interpretations of the Qur'an are necessary in order to understand the rich and comprehensive character of what would otherwise be enigmatic passages. Keeping in mind the distinction between Q 18:60-102 and the commentaries on these verses, it is possible to begin to uncover not the sources for the Qur'an, but the sources to which the commentaries make allusions in their interpretations of the Qur'an.

B. M. Wheeler, "Moses Or Alexander? Early Islamic Exegesis Of Qur'an 18:60-65", Journal Of Near Eastern Studies p.208  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.239.136.23 (talk) 12:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 

ha ha ha. I wonder how these wikipedia guys always end up understanding stuff upside down.

Is The Source Of Qur'an 18:60-65 The Alexander Romances? http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBalex.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.9.53 (talk) 10:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

On The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn ? http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.9.53 (talk) 10:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggested proposal

The lead of the article says that Alexander the Great being Dhul Qarnayn is conjecture. Doesn't this conflict with WP:Notability policy? If so, shouldn't this article be deleted or shortened? Btw, another article says Cyrus the Great in the Qur'an is the real Dhul Qarnayn. Someone65 (talk) 09:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

~~ Wholsesale deletion of this article is out of the question. Cyrus the great should be deleted. The word "conjecture" should be replaced, perhaps with "theory." Please suggest an alternative wording or article title name if you can.

Dodgy ref

Edwards, Rebecca (2002). "Two Horns, Three Religions. How Alexander the Great ended up in the Quran". American Philological Association, 133rd Annual Meeting Program (Philadelphia, 5 January 2002) 36, under Reception of Classical Literature, No. 5. Retrieved 13 March 2010. is a conference abstract, as as such isn't a RS William M. Connolley (talk) 18:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

~~ The paper was not published in a journal. It was presented at the annual meeting of the APA and can be read online. If you can suggest a way to improve the citation please do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.106.191 (talk) 06:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Unreliable reference tag

Why is this reference unreliable:

Esposito, John L., ed. "Alexander the Great". The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. Oxford Islamic Studies Online. Retrieved 13 March 2010.

? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.106.191 (talk) 06:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A fair question William M. Connolley (talk) 07:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Why does this article seem to reference itself?

"Alexander the Great in the Qur'an" is not the title of a known book or essay. Yet it is printed in bold at the top of this article. Wouldn't it just be better to begin: "They are theories that Alexander the Great appears in the Qur'an"? 92.20.145.18 (talk) 21:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Alexander was himself a barbarian responsible for destroying several civilizations and "the Great" was attached only in 1700-1900 as a result of European colonialism. How can he be the wall between Gog and Magog demons? Also he existed more than a millennium before Islam arrived in Arabia. Alexander didn't invade Arabia as he had in mind the riches of India. However his soldiers were too exhausted to move further after an unsuccessful campaign in India and hence returned to Macedonia. Perhaps this article would not have existed if Alexander would have invaded Arabia. This article simply tries to establish links between Alexander and other prophets/prophesies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiaccacount (talk • contribs) 07:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

           -1) Alexander was known as "Alexandros Megas" in classical antiquity. 2) Islam did not arrive in Arabia, it was conceived in Arabia.  3)  It is irrelevant how long before the advent of Islam Alexander lived; All of the prophets in the Old Testament existed (if they ever actually lived) a millennium or more before Alexander and are freely referred to in the Qu'ran.  4) If Alexander is a "arbarian responsible for destroying several civilizations"  What does that make Abu Bakr (the 1st Caliph), who invaded Sassanid Persia and brought down a millennia old civilization that had more or less survived Alexander's conquest intact.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.77.90 (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC) 

What about this? Alexander was a barbarian responsible for destroying several civilizations and "the Great" was attached only in 1700-1900 as a result of European colonialism. How can he be the wall between Gog and Magog demons? Also he existed more than a millennium before Islam arrived in Arabia. Alexander didn't invade Arabia as he had in mind the riches of India. However his soldiers were too exhausted to move further after an unsuccessful campaign in India and hence returned to Macedonia. Perhaps this article would not have existed if Alexander would have invaded Arabia. This article simply tries to establish links between Alexander and other prophets/prophesies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiaccacount (talk • contribs) 07:33, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Cosmology

" It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "canopy of the sky." "

Is this really true? I find it hard to believe that any people missed the connection between clouds and rain... 98.194.35.233 (talk) 04:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm unable to find a source saying that this was a belief in the ancient Greek Mythology regarding Oceanus. However, the Alexander romance legends found in the Qur'an appear to have been written in Syriac Christian legend from around the 6th century AD. The Wikipedia article on the Firmament:According to Genesis, God created the firmament to separate the "waters above" (the source of rain) from those below (in the underworld). According to another website, 6th century AD Christian monks in Egypt had the following idea: "Envisioned in this pre-scientific account is a flat terrestrial plain over which is erected the great crystalline firmament or the dome of the sky. Water not only partially covered the earth but also formed a vast reservoir above the dome. And why not? This model accounted nicely for rainfall and explained why the sky is blue-the colour of pure water." -- DesertAnt (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

In Genesis the water is divided into the water above and below the vault. I'm not sure about rainfall though.Gamma737 (talk) 15:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Cyrus the Great in Intro

I noticed that someone had removed parts of the introduction talking about the Syriac manuscripts and replaced it with a lengthy explanation of contemporary Muslim scholars who are forwarding the theory that Dhul Qarnayn is Cyrus the Great. This article is not about the (dubious) theory regarding Cyrus the Great. This article is about the facts supporting the case for identifying the story of Dhul Qarnayn with similar legend regarding Alexander the Great found in ancient, Christian Syriac writings, and providing other evidence to support the identification with Alexander.

So I have added back the text that was removed. I have left a small mention about the Cyrus the Great theory in the introduction, as a compromise.

Muslim apologists editing this article should understand very clearly that this article will not be hijacked or turn into a debate about Cyrus the Great ... In modern times, when people realized that Alexander the Great could not be compatible with Islam, Muslim have started denying that the story has anything to do with the Alexander legends and instead they are promoting the idea that Dhul Qarnayn is Cyrus the Great. These Muslims are entitled to their opinion, and they have a whole Wikipedia article where they can go promote their apologetics (see Cyrus the Great in the Quran), but THIS article here is a scholarly and encyclopaedic source of information regarding the Alexander the Great in the Quran - NOT Cyrus the Great or any of the other alternatives that Muslims promote these days. -- DesertAnt (talk) 18:59, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Verification of Source Needed:

Could someone with access the the following source please verify these claims that were added to this article:

some early Muslim scholars saw it as a reference to a pre-Islamic monarch from Persia or south Arabia.

The mystic Ibn Arabi (d. 638⁄1240) allegorically interpreted the figure of Dhul-Qarnayn as the heart which controls the left and right sides of the body.

SOURCE: Renard, John (2001). "Alexander". Encyclopedia of the Quran. 1 (1st ed.). Brill Academic Publishers. pp. 61-62. ISBN 9004114653.

I am very interested in any information about early Muslim scholars who denied the identification of Dhul-Qarnayn with Alexander the Great and suggested alternative identifications. Apparently the entry on "Alexander" in the "Encyclopedia of the Quran" (Brill Academic Publishers) says that there were such early scholar. The theory apparently proposed by the mystic Ibn Arabi is also interesting - if someone could verify the source, that would be much appreciated. Unfortunately I do not have easy access to this source and it costs $1,859 (!) to purchase it from the publisher.

For those who are interested - assuming that the claim about Ibn Arabi is true, it presents an interesting dilemma for Islamic apologists. Apparently, Ibn Arabi claimed that Dhul Qarnayn was an allegory for the human heart' "which controls the left and right sides of the body," which must be a reference to the story about Dhul Qarnayn travelling to the western and eastern "extremities" of the Earth. Prior to modern knowledge regarding human biology, people believed that the heart was the source of human thoughts, actions and all other cognitive functions (not the brain, as we now believe). This is why the heart is a symbol for love, for example. People concluded that the cognitive functions are controlled by the heart because (a) they had no idea what the actual purpose of the heart is, and (b) they could tell from common experience that their heart would beat faster when they were afraid, excited or aroused - so they incorrectly concluded that the heart performs the functions that we now attribute to the human brain. SO, it seems that the apologists have replaced one logical fallacy with another. I thought somebody might find this amusing / interesting. DesertAnt (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The pre-Islamic monach from South Arabia was a Himyarite (modern Yemen). You can search for Tubba and Himyar in this article which has useful references http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/articles/dhul-qarnayn-sunset-sunrise/ Gamma737 (talk) 15:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

For an incomplete summary of theories held by early Muslim historians and exegates, see al-Biruni's book al-ʾāthār al-bāqiya, which is also available in English translation. Al-Biruni lists a number of different Mesopotamian and South Arabian monarchs who were either known by the epithet "Dhu al-Qarnayn" or have been linked to legends similar to the ones described in the Qur'an. Al-Biruni then mentions two arguments supporting the identification of Dhu al-Qarnayn with a monarch from the Himyarite dynasty. These theories are generally attributed to earlier historians than al-Biruni, like Ibn Abbas or Ibn Duraid. If you're looking for those who more explicitly discussed (and rejected) the Alexander hypothesis, see the famous works of Ibn Kathir, Abu al-Fida', Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, and others, all available online. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 15:40, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

References

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Proposed Merge with Dul-Qarnayn

This article should be merged with Dhul-Qarnayn: as it stands, it's a fork.PiCo (talk) 09:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Ok, the process has been started. I've notified users who appear on talk pages since 2013 - neither page is very active.

• Comment As the one who proposed the merge I'll kick off. I don't know the history of the two articles from their inception, but there was evidently a rather heated discussion on the merge question back in 2005, which resulted in a decision not to do so. (The discussion is at the head of this talk page and at archive 1 of the Dhul-Qarnayn talk page). Nevertheless, I believe the question is worth raising again. The two contain the same material, even if in different words. The Dhul-Qarnayn article sets out the text of the Quranic tale of Dhul-Qarnayn, discusses the origin of the story in the Alexander Romance, and touches on Dhul-Qarnayn in later tradition. The Alexander-in-the-Quran article covers much the same material - it's longer but not so well sourced, but I'm sure that can be overcome. In short, I can see persuasive reasons for a merge, and can't think of any benefits from keeping both like this. (Please, if you want to reply directly to anything I've said here, indent under my comment; if you want to make your own comment, put a star and bold heading).PiCo (talk) 07:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  • It makes good sense in principle, particularly as there is significant overlap and modern academics agree that Dhu'l Qarnayn is related to the legends about Alexander the Great. However, it would not be so straightforward as it ought to be because this is a very controversial subject for religious reasons. A discussion of the split into two separate articles, as well as the creation of a 3rd article on the Cyrus theory, occured in 2005. It seems that the two articles were merged in October (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dhul-Qarnayn/Archive_1#Note_on_my_edits). They were quickly separated again (see 23 October and 24 October discussion here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dhul-Qarnayn#POV_pushing). Finally, in November further discussion was requested and they settled on maintaining the separation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dhul-Qarnayn#On_moving).

It seems likely that there would be very considerable opposition from some people against expanding the brief existing section about Alexander on the Dhu'l Qarnayn page and putting there the much more detailed evidence found here (a longer browse of the talk page and Archive 1 talk on the DQ page is enough to convince me of this). Some might also complain that the DQ and Alexander articles are merged, while the Cyrus article remains separate (as happened in the D-Q talk), though merging the Cyrus article too would clearly be disproportionate. Finally, I wonder what would be lost from this page in the process of merging and subsequent opposition. I have seen that the information on this page is of significant interest to those who are aware of and engage in the controversy (it is quite often linked by people). In short, my main fear is that even if it gains some degree of consensus, a new merger would result in significant watering down and loss of information as the purpose of the page is no longer just about the inspiration / lineage of the Dhu'l Qarnayn story, and / or an incredibly long article incorporating the full Cyrus page and other theories for "balance". Gamma737 (talk) 22:40, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - I've just read the interesting notice above: This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, Dhul-Qarnayn, due to size or style considerations. This article is however longer than the Dhul-Qarnayn one today. —PaleoNeonate – 08:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  • This article contains a great deal of material that has no bearing on the Quran.PiCo (talk) 09:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Given the lack of debate I'll let this lapse. PiCo (talk) 03:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I readded the tags, have tagged the articles for WikiProjects, as the discussion did not yet last 30 days. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 05:01, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support - Both articles are on the same topic. —PaleoNeonate – 05:03, 27 August 2018 (UTC)