Talk:Therese Sjölander

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus to move. Jafeluv (talk) 10:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

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Therese Sjölander → Therése Sjölander — (see talk page) Cunard (talk) 05:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

A move was proposed by LarRan (talk · contribs), but the speedy was declined by Fribbler (talk · contribs) because "All the sources simply use "Therese"." LarRan re-tagged the page for moving with this rationale:

“ The sources are not an authority on spelling. The census register (available on the web) is, and it gives the spelling Eva Therése Sjölander. Besides, it doesn't make sense with a redirect with a diacritic pointing to an article without it. It's supposed to be the other way around (provided it's correct, of course). LarRan (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC) ”

This is a procedural nomination, so I'm neutral. Cunard (talk) 05:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a way to check the Swedish civil registry online:

• Go to www.ratsit.se. This website can be used for checking people's and business's credit worthiness (if you're a member), but it also has a very useful search engine for the entire Swedish population aged 16 and over, less of course those who have a "protected identity", such as people in a witness protection program, or those who are victims of a stalker.
• Click the first tab, "Sök person" ("Search for person").
• Enter what parameters you have (an asterisk can be used as wildcard in all parameters, if a parameter is known only in part):
  • "Förnamn" = First name
  • "Efternamn" = Last name
  • "Födelsedatum/pnr" = Date of birth / personal identity number (on format YYYY-MM-DD-XXXY)
  • "Adress" = Address
  • "Postnummer" = Zip code (5 digits)
  • "Postort" = City/locality
• Untick the tick box "Fonetisk sökning" ("Phonetic search") if you want an exact match
• Hit the search-button ("Sök")

If you enter "Therése" (or "Therese"), "Sjölander", and "1981" in the first three fields, you will find that three persons in Sweden match those criteria. Only one of them is born on May 4, and her full name is spelled Eva Therése Sjölander.

Note: Checking people's credit worthiness in Sweden is legal only under certain cirumstances, such as when they are applying for a loan.

LarRan (talk) 08:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The sources are more likely to be reliable than the Swedish Census on what we want to know: what she is called in English? Very strongly oppose until the Swedish Wikipedia moves sv:Kalifornien because it's spelled wrong. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

How is your name spelled in Swedish? It's spelled the same way as in English, of course. Personal names do not change spelling from one language to another, provided that they share the same original alphabet - which they do, in this case the Latin one. Is James Bond spelled Jämes Bönd in Swedish? I wouldn't think so. Conclusion: Therése's name is spelled the same way in English as in Swedish.

Tell it to King Charles XIV John, whose name has changed from French to Swedish to English. Similarly, although my name escaped Ellis Island unscathed (if you were correct on it's being Swedish), many have not; some of them used one name in America and another in the old country and its language - including one of my great-uncles. If he were to have an article, I would object strenuously to his being misrepresented. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

If people change their name when they immigrate to America, that's fine by me. Then the name's changed, and it should be spelled according to the change. Kings' (and queens') names are traditionally translated - it's not a spelling variant. LarRan (talk) 08:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

So are other people's names translated - you're looking at an example; and the translation of Therése is as often Therese as Theresa. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying that all Thereses/Theréses/Theresas should have identical spelling. If a person is named Therese, then it's spelled that way, regardless of language. And the same goes for Therése and Theresa. I'm not talking about a given name in general. What I am saying is that an individual person's name is spelled in one way, and one way only. And I have supplied the mother of reliable sources, namely the Swedish census register. LarRan (talk) 13:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Please read Frédéric Chopin (which is, quite properly, spelled differently in the Polish Wikipedia) and please stop talking provincial nonsense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that all Thereses should be spelled identically? If your way of reasoning would prevail, then Roger Federer's article would be named Ruggiero Federero (or something similar) in the Italian wiki, and Rutger something in the Swedish wiki. That's provincial nonsense. I'm interpreting your last retort as you're running out of arguments. LarRan (talk) 14:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No, and I never said anything of the kind; each Therese should be spelt as our (English) sources spell her. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) You may not have realized it, but your position can be summarized as one of the two following:

• Articles on people named Therese, Therése, Theresa, Theresia, etc, etc, should be stored with the uniform spelling of Therese. This would go for all articles (including Mother Teresa) and would mean undertaking a major article renaming effort. I'm pretty sure this position has the support of exactly one (1) editor - you - if indeed this is your position. However, I believe more in the next alternative.
• This specific article should be stored with a spelling that is not the correct one, according to the civil registry. The reason escapes me, as a more reliable source is hard to imagine. What is said there is quite simply the truth, because that's where everything starts. Period. I can only assume that you started in good faith, checking the existing references (all two of them, including your recent addition), which, however factual accurate they may be, are not authorities on spelling. In your following posts, you defended your position, bringing in all kinds of non-comparable items, such as country names and kings' names, which are often by tradition translated into other languages. Translation issues and spelling issues are not the same. Besides, ordinary people's names are not translated. From then on it became a struggle for you to defend your position, no matter what. It's perfectly understandable, nobody likes to be wrong. But now it's time for you to admit just that, no matter how much it pisses you off. Hundreds - no, thousands - of articles in wikipedia are stored with a spelling that differs from many (or even most) English-language sources, who tend to take lightly on diacritics. Had there not been a redirect in the way, you wouldn't even have noticed my move, and if you against all odds had, you wouldn't have objected. What's it to you, how her name is spelled? What's the beef? Aren't there more important tasks for you in wikipedia, than fighting a losing battle over a non-celebrity? Lay the prestige aside, and admit that you're wrong.

LarRan (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

The case of en:California vs. sv:Kalifornien - or en:Canada vs. sv:Kanada - is another thing, as it is not the name of a person. Place names are often translated, cf. cz:Praha vs. en:Prague (or sv:Prag). LarRan (talk) 20:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

And so are personal names, in the actual world. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No, they're not. If you'd ask Therése how she spells her name in English, you'd only get a strange look. The only valid question is "How do you spell your name?" - period. That's why I asked the question "How do you spell your name in Swedish?". It's a weird question, and so is the notion of her name being spelled differently in English. LarRan (talk) 08:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a perfectly normal question. The answer is often "exactly the same", but not always. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

See above. LarRan (talk) 13:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Support. Surely this is an instance of Wikipedia:UE#No_established_usage? It's established English usage to call the current king of Spain Juan Carlos instead of John Charles, but to call the current Pope Benedict rather than Benedictus or Benedetto or Benedikt. Sjölander is not widely known and discussed enough in English for there to be a particular convention for her name, so WP:UE prescribes the native usage. --Atemperman (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No, certainly not. That's for subjects for whom there are virtually no sources in English, and are notable anyway. No silver-medalist in any modern Olympics satifies the first condition, as this listing and this story, which use Therese, will show; so there is English usage, but none, so far, of the English accent aigu Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The original spelling of Therese, in French, has two accents, as in Thérèse of Lisieux. This proposes to use a hybrid form with one accent, on the basis of an isolated Swedish clerical record. Which is the more likely hypothesis: that the Swedish census-taker has no better French than yours or mine? or that Miss Sjölander chooses a bizarre spelling and conveyed it to a census taker, but not to reporters or her fans?

Errors, especially on the foreign names, are routine in birth, baptismal, and census records; there are some in my own family. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment - It's not entirely clear to me, since Google seems to be polluted mostly by scraper sites in this case, but there seems to be divided usage in both English and Swedish. Looking through the Google hits are nearly useless, but picking only the obviously not Wikipedia-scraped few, this is what I got:

• "Therese Sjölander" [1][2][3][4]
• "Therése Sjölander" [5](also IMDB's other language versions)
• "Therese Sjolander" [6][7][8](no special characters used for anyone)[9][10](no special characters used for anyone)[11] (note: 1 blacklisted URL couldn't be not included here, from mapsoftheworld.com)

These are the only sources I could find (using Google, anyway) that weren't obviously scraped from Wikipedia. From so few results, I'm not inclined to point to any single established spelling. As for Swedish, several sources give "Therese Sjölander": [12] and [13] being a couple. Therefore, if we invoke "no established usage", there appears to be no main spelling in the native language either. Therefore, we should default to whatever is the latest stable page title; this appears to be the current one, "Therese Sjölander". -kotra (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.