Talk:Third League of Prizren

Labels

Labels shouldn't be used per WP:LABEL and of course as it has been established in many other discussions Bogdanovic isn't RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect. There was no label in the removed text. Unless you present link to the RSN discussion whith consensus that Bogdanovic is not RS for the context used in this article don't remove referenced text.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't rv claims about terrorists based on Bogdanovic, a flagrantly unreliable source i.e. WP:LABEL, WP:RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Unless you present link to the RSN discussion whith consensus that Bogdanovic is not RS for the context used in this article don't remove referenced text.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

All reviews agree that he isn't RS, so no RSN is necessary and there's no context at all. You've used his nationalist views as facts.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes it is necessary. If you are right, and I think you are not, you will have an easy job at RSN.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Disagreeing without sources to support your disagreement is a non-view i.e

• • Despite its relative backwardness and isolation, Kosovo’s status as a focus for Serbian nationalism and flash point for armed conflict has generated a large literature describing the region’s history. The Kosovo problem is evoked from a Serbian perspective in Dimitrije Bogdanović, Knijga o Kosovu.

• Bogdanovic was the author of a very influential study called Knjiga o Kosovu, which was published among the numerous revisionist writings of 1985

• Book about Kosovo wanted to portray the Serbs as the sole victims of historical persecution, it thus sought to counter the claims of Albanian victimization during the interwar period.

• According to Bogdanovic his aim was to to defend Yugoslavia's territorial integrity threatened and undermined by Albanian nationalism--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Thank you for presenting sources which support that work of Bogdanovic is indeed "very influential study" which presents "a Serbian perspective" countering "the claims of Albanian victimization during the interwar period" of "Albanian nationalism" aimed to threaten and undermine "Yugoslavia's territorial integrity". Yes his work is reliable although it failed to defend Yugoslavia's territorial integrity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Using half-sentences from the reviews won't make them less unfavorable towards his work.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing unfavorable in countering "the claims of Albanian victimization during the interwar period" with "very influential study" which presents "a Serbian perspective" trying (unsuccessfully) to "defend Yugoslavia's territorial integrity threatened and undermined by Albanian nationalism".

You can check yourself. Just go to Google Scholar and type Dimitrije Bogdanovic.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Using half-sentences from the reviews won't make them less unfavorable towards his work. Btw I found only another source (Serbian, no English-language or Albanian-language ones) that mentions this organization. Apparently, it either didn't exist or was such a minor one that it was deemed notable only by a couple of revisionist works.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing unfavorable in countering "the claims of Albanian victimization during the interwar period" with "very influential study" which presents "a Serbian perspective" trying (unsuccessfully) to "defend Yugoslavia's territorial integrity threatened and undermined by Albanian nationalism". You can check yourself. Just go to Google Scholar and type Dimitrije Bogdanovic.

If source is "Serbian, no English-language or Albanian-language ones, does it mean it is of less value"? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The value is measured by the quality of the scholar, the form is by its translation in English. Both form and content are important. --Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 19:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

How reliable is Bogdanovic

I can't help but staring to the sentences "Armaments which were transported from Albania to Kosovo presented significant danger and was forcibly collected in period 1954—1957. Groups for diversions and terrorist acts were infiltrated from Albania into territory of Yugoslavia, killing government officials and terrorized Serbian population of Kosovo". Where does Bogdanovic base this? And I see that the text is from kosovo.net, which can be anything but reliable source when it comes to Albanians.
The article Albanian Subversion describes part of the history of insurgents financed by British Intelligence, passing from Yugoslavia and even Greece into Albania. It surprises me that Bogdanovic pretends the other way around, in 50s - 60s, Albanian insurgents were crossing the border into Yugoslavia and terrorizing the population. Wouldn't it be mentioned somewhere else but kosovo.net?
Furthermore, Hysen Trpeza went to Greece where Hoxha's agents almost killed him, from there to Turkey, Germany, US, and back to Switzerland. No info on him coming to Albania, crossing the border and terrorizing people there.
Mondiad (talk) 01:03, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed this is all true. I study history, and this Third League of Prizren concept is to be found only in the Serbian Wikipedia, from which this article seems to have been copied, and probably some sick minded bloggers who are copied here. Asked for quotations in English, right now they are in Serbian, and, as such unverifiable. Reliable sources are needed. --Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 19:07, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Sick minded bloger? Please comment on content, not on the contributor. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I said "sick minded bloggers who are copied here". I didn't say that you are sick minded, you were the copying person, not the blogger. Please read carefully. --Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I created this article on sr.wiki. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... its topic is notable and covered by reliable sources. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:32, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

That is not true. Reliable sources don't actually discuss a "Third league of Prizren". It's just an obscure nationalist canard, and en.wikipedia has been suckered into presenting it at face value. However, CSD without a criterion isn't entirely helpful; now that you've objected to try and keep your article, I imagine we'll end up at AfD, unless the next admin patrolling CSD actually spends some time reading the sources... bobrayner (talk) 22:38, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. There are many sources used in the article. On the first view, they don't look unreliable. Some authors are Serbian academics (Marković, Tadić, Bogdanovic, ...) or Montenegrin academics (Strugar, Borozan). One author (Ličina) is Croatian used in FA (Pavle Đurišić). One is Slovenian. One Macedonian journal specialized in history and published at University, .... In any case Wikipedia:Civility applies here. It is wrong to refer to other editors as "sick minded blogers" or to works of above mentioned authors as "obscure nationalist canard". It says "Try not to get too intense. Other people can misread your passion as aggression. Take great care to avoid the appearance of being heavy-handed or bossy. Nobody likes to be bossed about by an editor who appears to believe that they are "superior"; nobody likes a bully." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Albanian author Mexhid Yvejsi confirms: Në vitin 1962, kur në New York u themelue Organizata “Lidhja e Prizrenit” e degët e saj u formuan nëpër Amerikë, Evropë...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Another Albanian author confirms Në vitin 1962, Xhafer Deva themelon organizatën “Lidhja e Prizrenit” në Nju Jork.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

• Prifti also wries about this organization. He confirmed that it published is journal Prifti, Peter R. (1978). Socialist Albania since 1944: domestic and foreign developments. MIT Press. p. 297. ISBN 978-0-262-16070-4. Lidhja e Prizrenit [The League of Prizren] , organ of the League of Prizren in exile, Apr.-May-June 1972.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
• Hadri, Ali (1971). Lëvizja nacionalçlirimtare në Kosovë, 1941-1945. Rilindja. p. 334. e në fund Xhafer Deva Kjo organizatë kishte edhe organin e vet, „Lidhja e Prizrenit", i cili përhapte idenë e „Shqipërisë së Madhe", theksonte nevojën e mbrojtjes së „Shqipërisë etnike" dhe i sulmonte komunistët shqiptarë si „agjentë" të ... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

  Thanks Antidiskriminator for translating the sources. I think the page can stay, but needs to be renamed into something else. None of the Albanian historiography sources that you mentioned mentions it as "Third", only Serbian sources do. This seems to have been an association in the USA, with not much weight, and there are only some Serbian sources of dubious validity that call it that way. No Albanian historian has ever called it that way, let alone English speaking ones. Perhaps rename into League of Prizren Association or something like that? --Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Did you read my above comment? Montenegrin academics, Croatian, Macedonian, Slovenian.. authors all refer to this organisation as Third LoP. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. After first and second usually comes third. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

The academics from former Yugoslavia countries would be considered reliable, I guess, but so are the Albanian ones. My suggestion to call this one not a "third league of Prizren", is based on the fact that the organizers themselves didn't call it "third", and also the Albanian sources don't call it as such either, so it was a mediating solution. Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 18:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

How it was called then originally, and in Albanian? FkpCascais (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

The very few Albanian sources that refer to what the article is supposed to describe is an organization of Albanian diaspora in US (as one the many) created in New York, which they called "Lidhja e Prizrenit" (Prizren's League) to bring reminiscences of the real League of Prizren and organize Albanians in the struggle against Yugoslavia and Communism in general, same as they might name other organizations as "Kosova" (Kosovo), "28 Nentori" (November 28), "Malesia" (The Highland), "Vatra" (The Hearth), etc. Once again it was not an event like the previous Leagues, it was the name of an organization, contrary to what the article describes. The organization was so insignificant (it is defunct who knows since when if it ever functioned) that even residing in US and having access to Albanian-American newspapers never heard of it.

To go on and call this "Third League of Prizren" is not only inaccurate, but even grotesque and it is very offensive to the Albanians, for the nature and key importance that the League of Prizren had in Albanian history. Surprisingly, the only sources that mention such an event are from Serbia: serbianna.com, and kosovo.net.

If the Albanians held a such event, wouldn't they remember it?

I propose to rename it to the "League of Prizren" Organization in US, or just "League of Prizren" (organization), and we can stop losing time on this.

Mondiad (talk) 19:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

What term Albanian academics use to refer to the topic of this article? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:28, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

In the articles you presented above, I found no "third", so I started searching and I found a source here, that talks about a book written on this League. The title of the book is "League of Prizren 1962-2002". There are fragments where the league is called "League of Prizren in exile" or even "Third League of Prizren", but the latter is in quotes, probably to diminish its importance. Not sure anymore, but as Mondiad said, the "Third League of Prizren" expression is used like a joke now. Probably League of Prizren in exile or League of Prizren (1962-2002) would also be better options. Vetemekenshkodran (talk) 19:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

So, no Albanian academics? Thank you for your honest approach and confirmation that Albanian authors do refer to this organization as "Third League of Prizren". A joke is not good argument for renaming. If it is really notable, which I doubt, it is possible to create article on it with title Third League of Prizren (joke). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:26, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Name change

I am going to propose a name change to "League of Prizren (organization)". Than we can discuss about the neutrality and check the article. There is no way it can stand with the current name.
Anyone has a better name in mind? Mondiad (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• "There is no way it can stand with the current name."? - Try not to get too intense. Other people can misread your passion as aggression. Take great care to avoid the appearance of being heavy-handed or bossy. Nobody likes to be bossed about by an editor who appears to believe that they are "superior"; nobody likes a bully.
• The current title is term used in sources and it better meets WP:CRITERIA, particularly Consistency, taking in consideration articles on League of Prizren, Second League of Prizren..... Third League of Prizren is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.
• The name you proposed does not meet any of WP:NAMINGCRITERIA.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Making fun of Albanian History is the worst aggression. And considering the intense relationship between Serbian and Albanians we should try to avoid this. To go and name an unknown never-significant US based organization as the Third League of Prizren is unacceptable. I don't see why is so difficult for you to understand. Not everything that is related to Albanians of Kosovo has to be sequentially named as another League of Prizren.
• again, this is only an organization of certain Albanian immigrants in US. There is nothing like League of Prizren.
• If you have a better idea for the name, you can state it. But if you don't I will have to escalate and ask for a more expert opinion. wp:this and wp:that is not enough to justify an article name insulting to a whole nation.
• Once again, I was surprised I saw your username as author. I've seen your other work and there is far more academic material you have contributed.

I still believe we can agree on a name change, before discussing any fact within the article itself.Mondiad (talk) 17:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

But wait. I don´t think no one is making fun on eachothers history, right the opposite. The thing is that some authors do call this organisation as "Third League of Prizren". Perhaps the name is exagerated having in mind the importance of the previous two leagues, also, seems that the organisation itself was just a wannaby of archiving something much larger and with more impact, something they never got to be or do. FkpCascais (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

In that case we should be OK by renaming it to something more appropriate. Mondiad (talk) 20:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I don't understand your position here, Mondiad. What exactly do you think is insulting in "Third League of Prizren"? Is Second League of Prizren also insulting? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Second League of Prizren was an event well documented. This Third League of Prizren or whatever it is, is an organization's name. I may go and create a society together with some friends of mine and name it "Battle of Kosovo", this does not translate into an wiki article named Third Battle of Kosovo. Got my point of view? And this organization is so insignificant, that no one mentions it beside Serbian sources, while the second league is mentioned a lot even though it was a pro-Nazi thing. The material inside the article is another topic. But the name is what is immediately evident. Mondiad (talk) 20:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• No, I don't get your point of view. I already explained in section above that there are lot of non-Serbian sources about this organization so please don't repeat "Serbian sources" fallacy.
• I asked you a simple question. What exactly do you think is insulting in "Third League of Prizren"? The example with society you and your friends would establish does not explain much. If this society would be described in numerous texts, many of them written by members of scientific academies, and described as "Fifteenth Battle of Kosovo" then the article about this society would be named as such.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:23, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Naming a US organization article as the Third League of Prizren and linking it to the second or the first gives the idea of the continuity, which I hope in this case is not intentional. I don't see why you don't want to add "(organization)" to the end of the article's name. Mondiad (talk) 14:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• I asked you a simple question. What exactly do you think is insulting in "Third League of Prizren"?
• Addition of "(organization)" to the end of the article's name would not meet any of WP:CRITERIA (recognizability, naturalness, precision, conciseness and consistency).
• Some authors, like Elsie, emphasize the continuity. Taking in consideration personal engagement of Xhafer Deva, I am not surprised. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, Robert Elsie describes this "third league" as being a continuation of the second. (see Historical Dictionary of Kosovo, p. 81) Wouldn't it be wise to merge this article into an "Aftermath" section of the Second League of Prizren? 23 editor (talk) 17:12, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of exceptional sources which refer to this organization as "third league", distinctive from first or second. Unless there are similar exceptional sources that support Elsie's view, there are no valid arguments for your merge proposal.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of cited content

This diff is an attempt to delete cited content without valid reason. I will restore cited assertion unless valid arguments grounded on wikipedia policies or RSN are presented.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:27, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Could you provide other sources to back that strong and controversial claim? Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing strong and controversial about it. The topic of this article covers this claim. Here is one for example: Djukić, Miodrag; Lalić, Borislav (1984). Anti-Yugoslav pretensions of Enver Hoxha. Tanjug. p. 47. Between 1948 and 1960, a total of 675 saboteurs and other agents, 548 of whom armed and equipped for acts of terrorism and sabotage were discovered andcaptured in Yugoslavia. It may be assumed that not all agents infiltrated by Albania were....--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

The said claims were ususal among Communist countries and their political and ideological conflicts. Could you provide some sources published by western academic publishers? Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Of course not. There are no such claims between Yugoslavia and other communist countries. Please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Respond to my question. Some Albanian sources of that time accuse Yugoslavia of many things. We are not going to add everything was written in that time for the sake of ideological conflicts. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:19, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I responded and refuted central point of your POV about ideological conflicts. Here is a work published by publisher which is impossible to be more western: Milosevic, M.; Rekawek, K. (3 April 2014). Perseverance of Terrorism: Focus on Leaders. IOS Press (Amsterdam, Berlin, Tokio, Washington DC) in cooperation with NATO. ISBN 978-1-61499-387-2. with plenty of Albanian terrorist groups deployed against Yugoslavia. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:38, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

The relevant chapter was written by two Macedonians who lecture in Macedonia. They write in a bombastic way regarding the issue, presenting Albanian nationalism in an inappropriate manner, without giving a background to the situation where Albanian nationalists of that time acted. Anyways, where does your source mention the Third League of Prizren? Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• The relevant chapter was written by two Macedonians... You first insist on western publishers (Could you provide some sources published by western academic publishers), and when I present most possible western publisher you retort to your invincible (and I think shameful and disguisting) "author of wrong ethnicity argument". Unless you present link to RSN discussion which says that authors of FOO ethnicities are incapable to write reliable sources, this kind of arguments are at least disruptive.
• Anyways, where does your source mention the Third League of Prizren Let me use your edits to refute your POV. When I removed your unrelated addition here (diff) you reverted me stating his article elaborates ...... What is good for the goose is good for the gender. This article elaborates how Albania pursued Greater Albanian irredentist objectives trough infiltration of its agents and terrorists into Yugoslavia. Therefore addition of text about it is completely related even if it does not explicitly mention TLP. Thank you for refuting yourself. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:26, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Do not put words on my mouth. The ethnicity of them is not an issue. Per WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, respond to my question and do not redirect the focus of the discussion. The other article's subject is an event, this article's subject is an organisation. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:27, 2 September 2018 (UTC)