Talk:Thirteen Assyrian Fathers

Title

I've moved this page to Thirteen Syrian Fathers because it is by far the common name:

• "Thirteen+Syrian+Fathers"&btnG=Search+Books Thirteen Syrian Fathers (71)
• "Thirteen+Assyrian+Fathers"&btnG=Search+Books Thirteen Assyrian Fathers (1). ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 01:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Next time pleas wait with your changes until the auter made commant. Geagea (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Authors have no special rights to articles. "Thirteen Assyrian Fathers" is demonstrably incorrect. Sami (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Pleas stop edit war. You provided yourself source that shows that the term exists. I did not change all your chages edit in the article only the "Thirteen Assyrian Fathers" alog with the "Thirteen Syrian Fathers" and the Georgian name, as they where activ in Georgia. After I see the auters respond i'll decied if to do so. Geagea (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

There is one recent source in the face of 71 other sources. It is WP:UNDUE to put an aberration on equal terms with the actual name. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 18:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

In Georgian it gives us 16,100 results her. Because they were activ in Georgia itws simlpe logic that we have more sources in Georgian. Geagea (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

All that matters is common English usage. See WP:UCN and WP:ENGLISH. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Only for naming conventions. Geagea (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is about what the common English name is, which is "Syrian" not "Assyrian". If you want other opinions on this you are free to seek them. There isn't any evidence that "Assyrian" is common English usage. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 19:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

You cleim neutrality of this article only for saing "Thirteen Assyrian Fathers". This is the common name of them in Georgia as I see, so it not disseminated. About English sources we have to wait to the author, my self dont know much about it. Geagea (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It is irrelevant what the name in Georgia is. From what I've seen; what counts is common English usage. There is no evidence that Assyrian is common English usage. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 19:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Pleas stop edit war and stop. You have no information about "Georgian church tradition". Geagea (talk) 21:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Assyrian is common English usage. The burden is on you to prove whether it is. You haven't done so. Therefore it will be removed unless you are able to do so. I will leave you a reasonable amount of time in which to present any evidence that Assyrian is common English usage. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 22:23, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Thirteen Assyrian Fathers and Thirteen Syrian Fathers are both common, you almost get the same numbers [1] [2]. Why Assyrian is used these times is to avoid the confusion with Syria. Think of those thinks too when the numbers are close to each other. Shmayo (talk) 10:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

A Swedish Google search is not equal to an English Google book search, for the purpose at hand. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 19:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

A Google search clearly shows how common words are. Yes, all hits were in Swedish, right? Really doesn't matter if it is ".se" or ".com", test it. Shmayo (talk) 19:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

This is about the measure in literature not Google spam; most of which is recent and includes mirrors. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

It's even said that search engines could be used; "Search engine testing sometimes helps decide which of alternative names is more common.". And again this is not just about common name, it's also about avoiding confusion. Shmayo (talk) 20:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The book search shows decisively that the common English name in literature is "Syrian", and that "Assyrian" is not at all a common alternative. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 22:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

As I said, search engines can be used here. Both are clearly used. Still, it's about avoiding confusion too. Shmayo (talk) 19:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This is what it says:

"Search engine testing sometimes helps decide which of alternative names is more common. When searching, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Wikipedia". It may also be useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals. For detailed advice, see Wikipedia:Search engine test."

Have you done an advanced search restricting results to pages in English and excluding the word "Wikipedia" then? Are there any reliable references for it?

WP:UEIA "The body of each article, preferably in its first paragraph, should list all common names by which its subject is widely known."

If it is widely known how do you explain the virtual absence in books? ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

[3], as you see it's still much used. And if even UNESCO is using it, how is it not common? Shmayo (talk) 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems to have some usage then, even if not in books. I think it is sufficient to list it as an alternative. ܥܝܪܐܩ (talk) 20:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 16 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus  — Amakuru (talk) 19:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

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Thirteen Assyrian Fathers → Thirteen Syrian Fathers – Clearly preferred in English-language reliable sources. The Gorgias Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Syriac Heritage article on Georgian Christianity, Syriac contacts with only uses "Syrian". Emma Loosley Leeming in her open access book Architecture and Asceticism: Cultural Interaction between Syria and Georgia in Late Antiquity cannot make up her mind and uses "(As)Syrian Fathers" throughout. The actual ethnic identity and geographic origin of the Thirteen Fathers—and, of course, even their historicity—are open to question. Srnec (talk) 14:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• Refer to this as use of "Assyrian" to describe these men in English. Again, Georgia calls the monks Assyrian. They don't call them Arameans, Chaldeans, or Syrians. It's a Georgian tale, and we shouldn't confuse anyone who may be looking up this tale by changing the name to some outdated nomenclature. Mirovekîaştiyê (talk) 18:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
• "Syrian" is a very ambiguous term that is even misused by scholars who are ignorant of the nuances which distinguish it from "Assyrian". The missionaries in question are Assyrians, speakers of Eastern Aramaic. All Christian and Ashurist speakers of Eastern Aramaic dialects are and always have been ethnically Assyrian. Even other religious groups who speak Eastern Aramaic are of Assyrian heritage but normally choose to ethnically identify by their religious heritage.

Whilst Syrian is an ambiguous term that means different things in English and only sometimes refers to Assyians, it could refer to the Roman province of Syria, the Greek province of Syria, the modern Arab Republic of Syria or the geographical area known as Syria which normally excludes upper Mesopotamia, the heart of the homeland of Assyrians and also whence these Assyrian missionaries came.

Syrian could refer to a Jew from Greek Syria, or a Greek from Roman Syria, or a Circassian from the Arab Republic of Syria, or any inhabitant of the geographical region (a Phoenician, Aramaean, Jew, Arab, Greek, Roman, or Assyrian).

It would be misleading to simply restrict the identification a group of Italians as "Europeans" instead of specifically identifying them as "Italians". Likewise, the 13 Assyrian fathers are not merely "Syrian".

Even if the thirteen Assyrian fathers were from Syria, it would still be clearest to identify them as "Assyrian" so as to distinguish them from the plethora of different peoples that the term Syrian could refer to. However, the thirteen Assyrian fathers are not even from Syria to begin with.

In his treatise, leading Assyriologist professor Simo Parpola of the university of Helsinki writes in section 3.3, page 15

" When the Seleucid Empire disintegrated at the end of the second century BC, its western remnants were annexed to Rome, while several semi-independent kingdoms of decidedly Assyrian identity (Osrhoene, Adiabene, Hatra, Assur) popped up in the east under Parthian overlordship. These kingdoms preserved Assyrian cultural and religious traditions (Al-Salihi, W. 1983; cf. Table III) but were also receptive to Christianity, whose central ideas were in line with the central tenets of Assyrian religion and ideology, and which was felt as intrinsically Assyrian because of the Aramaic affinity of Jesus and the disciples. "

This refers to the ethnic and geographical heritage of the Eastern Aramaic speaking people of Upper Mesopotamia and its immediately surrounding areas.

On page 17, Parpola then goes on to explain the common misinterpretation of Assyrians as merely being Syrians (in the generic, unspecific sense which the term caries in English):

  "   In the second century AD, two prominent writers from Roman Syria, Lucian and Tatian, ostentatiously identify themselves as Assyrians (Assúrios). This self-identification is commonly misinterpreted to imply nothing more than that these writers were ethnic Syrians (in the modern sense) speaking Aramaic as their mother tongue (Millar 1993, 460).   "

--SaqoraS (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea what any of this has to do with how some figures from Georgian hagiography are called in English. It almost seems motivated by something else entirely. Srnec (talk) 01:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It has to do with what Assyrian and Syrian mean in English.

This clearly explains how Syrian is vague and inaccurate whilst Assyrian is specific and accurate with reference to these missionaries.

--SaqoraS (talk) 01:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support: "Syrian" is more commonly used by academia that "Assyrian". --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
• So far it looks very convincing that "Assyrian" is the accurate term for the article. I've seen evidence on the side that it should be "Assyrian" and nothing to refute this from the side of "Syrian". To reiterate, "Syrian" is a broad and inaccurate term that can lead to misinformation, while "Assyrian" actually denotes the origin of the topic in the article and is accurate.

To Ahmedo Semsurî, have you read the responses above? They already negate what you have just said.

--Heizellshock (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:18, 18 July 2019

• Support. Whether or not Assyrian is more correct in our opinions is beside the point. We go by sources, and these use Syrian, accurately or not. See also discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 16:51, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support per English-language sources stating the subject in this matter, and since this is the English Wikipedia, we go by names proved to be most used in English sources. Steel1943 (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Assyrian is the correct translation from Georgian sources. Perpetuating English translation errors is not the intent of WP:NOR. Articles on foreign topics should defer to decisions on the foreign language Wikipedia (ka:ასურელი_მამები), unless there is good reason not to. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Assyrian is the correct translation from Georgian sources". Says who? Stephen H. Rapp (a Georgian expert) and Sebastian P. Brock (a Syriac expert) don't seem to think it's an error. To determine the correct translation we have to look at reliable English sources. Like these by Georgian authors:

• K. S. Kekelidze, "On the Arrival of the Syrian Missionaries in Kartli", Etyudy 1 (1956), 19–50.
• Z. Alexidze, "The New Recensions of the Conversion of Georgia and the Lives of the 13 Syrian Fathers recently Discovered on Mt. Sinai", in Il Caucaso: Cerniera fra Cultura dal Mediterraneo alla Persia (Secoli IV–XI), Settimane di Studio del Centro Italiano di Studi sull’alto Medioevo, vol. 43 (Spoleto, 1996), 409–426.
• S. Matitashvili, "The Monasteries Founded by the Thirteen Syrian Fathers in Iberia The Rise of Monasticism in Sixth-Century Georgia", Studies in Late Antiquity 2:1 (2018), 4–39.

For the record, I don't think either Syrian or Assyrian is wrong. They are both legitimate translations, but translation isn't the only question. There is also the question of who these people were. There were not just thirteen of them! And they may not all have been either Syrian or Assyrian! Best to follow common English usage among scholarly reliable sources. Srnec (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose – The arguments to use the correct translation seem stronger than arguments to just use the common error. Dicklyon (talk) 19:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
• Strong oppose It's mostly been said above, but I see no reason to effectively whitewash this article by using the incorrect translation (obviously it wouldn't be intentional, but you catch my drift). Assyrians are an ethnic minority and Syrians are a citizens of Syria. This page precisely refers to the former over the latter. Regardless of the outcome of this move request though, we should should add a note explaining the translation differences. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:04, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

• @MJL: Why do you think these were Assyrians in any sense? Sure, some of them are described as coming from Assyria in biographies written centuries later, but others are from places like Antioch and Edessa. They all have Georgian toponymics and none have distinctly Syrian or Assyrian names. Neither "Thirteen Assyrian Fathers" nor "Thirteen Syrian Fathers" can be taken to indicate the ethnic or geographic origins of these saints. It is a purely conventional designation (as shown by the fact that there were more than 13). Srnec (talk) 03:03, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

This move if performed will overwrite

 04:49, 16 July 2019‎ Mirovekîaştiyê talk contribs block‎  56 bytes +56‎  Mirovekîaştiyê moved page Thirteen Syrian Fathers to Thirteen Assyrian Fathersover redirect: “Assyrian” more common, Syrian refers to the modern day Syrian Arabs

which was discussed at length above but not in a formal RM. As there seems no consensus above, that move should not have taken place and is rightly reverted by this RM. Andrewa (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.