Talk:Thirty-two-bar form

Clarify

This article is not very easy to understand. Could someone clarify? --Dweller 11:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

What specifically is hard to understand? Hyacinth (talk) 08:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The first paragraph. I came here from a pop-song article /Great Balls of Fire/, which thankfully had a discussion on the structure of the song. But I didn't know what AABA meant. I was hoping to get a quick and simple explanation, maybe with a clear example or diagram, in the opening paragraph. I still don't know what AABA is after struggling through the article. --Why is it that music articles in Wik are so often either missing content or written for those who either have musical training or a natural understanding of music? There are lots of us who are interested in music but don't have a natural for it. 202.179.16.71 (talk) 08:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

AABA is a diagram. Hyacinth (talk) 08:24, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

? "A diagram is a two-dimensional geometric symbolic representation of information according to some visualization technique." 202.179.16.64 (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The x-axis is time and the y-axis is events. Hyacinth (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The first major issue that I noticed is that the article conflates the A/B/C/etc structure inside of a measure with the A/B/C/etc structure inside of a song. Below, I noticed that someone removed a diagram, which I actually thought was way more clear than the dumb overuse of ABBABABABA whatever littering the article. Unfortunately, as I came to this page to learn more about the subject, it's hard for me to judge with authority what should and shouldn't be removed. It's really confusing. Damienivan (talk) 01:56, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The section about "Every Breath You Take" has a confusing diagram, a questionable statement that its "AABACAABA" form combines "ABA" and AABA" — I guess it does? — and is followed by the Middle Eight section, which is perplexing. Here, the use of the term "B section" is a case study in bewilderment. Is it the "B" in the "AABA" of 32 bars? Or is it the C in the "ABABCB" structure of a song???? Again, I specifically came to this page to understand this very thing that is incomprehensible, so I can't fix it myself. Damienivan (talk) 02:11, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

From Me to You

"From Me to You" seems not to be AABA, but AABABA, more like Verse-chorus form --A4 19:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

About the merging

I don't really know much about this subject, but I think some people say "middle eight" when talking about the bridge or the interlude of a verse/chorus song. The article middle 8 says that, but it seems to be a duplicate of this one (since middle eight redirects here), and it doesn't have any references. I think the best thing to do is to merge everything into bridge (music). As I said before, I'm not familiar with this topic, otherwise I'd do it myself. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 21:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

correction?

The article states "In the refrain, the A section or verse forms the main melody" The A section is NOT called the verse. The verse precedes the refrain.... 74.229.142.223 (talk) 20:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

figure does not represent thirty-two bar form!

has anyone noted that the figure is a twelve-bar form? I am a newbie to editing, so will not undertake myself, but this figure is definitely wrong.

update: I just listened to "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". It is absolutely exemplary. If we had the score for that, that would be a good figure.

70.36.186.9 (talk) 07:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction about the "middle eight" in the article

In the upper part of the article, we read:
(AABA form) The B section or middle eight is also often referred to as the bridge...

so far so good, but in its own section at the end of the article, it says:
In music theory, middle 8 refers to the section of a song which has a significantly different melody from the rest of the song, usually after the second chorus in a song...

(this is consistent with the above sentence, but now:)
...(typically, a song consists of first verse, bridge, chorus, second verse, bridge, chorus, middle eight, chorus).

So, now it's two different things, and the bridge is not the middle eight... -- megA (talk) 18:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The whole middle eight section seems dubious to me, and has no references.

Bitbut (talk) 09:20, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Until I read the article, I had always known as "the bridge" what is here described as "middle eight"... I had never heard of a "bridge" between verse and chorus... -- megA (talk) 13:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This article is full of contradictions. Nobody seems to care as there's no additions or discussion in over a year.

The middle 8 can not be both the B section in AABA, and a section different from both the verse and the chorus. The chorus in AABA is the B section.

The article says. "occurs after the second chorus in a song (typically, a song in 32-bar form consists of first verse, chorus, second verse, chorus, middle eight, chorus)."

What that describes is ABABCB. And the word "typically" is absurd. There's nothing typical about it.

The C in my interpretation would be called the bridge. A bridge is something totally different from the A or the B section. A bridge (at least a good one) should be totally different than either the verse or the chorus yet it has to find it's way back, bridge up, with, most commonly the verse.

So much of this makes no sense that if I removed all of it there would be little left of the article.

For instance. "The main tune—usually a classic AABA 32-bar form—is called the refrain or chorus." makes no sense. The "main tune", and what that is is vague, can't be both the A and B sections which are by definition different from each other and can't be called one thing called "the main tune".

If I remove "—usually a classic AABA 32-bar form—" from the sentence it makes sense. So I am removing it.

As a long time musician, specializing in love songs and ballades, that did study music I would argue that much of the terminology here is archaic, unnecessarily complicated and often vague.

What is called here ""sectional verse" I believe is more commonly called simply an intro.

What is called here a refrain is simply called the verse. What is called here, at the top anyway, a bridge I would strongly argue is simply the chorus, and a bridge is a third section differing significantly from either the verse or the chorus. Writing good or great bridges require extraordinary talent and are therefore largely absent from a large majority of current popular songs.

So simply put AABA would be verse, verse, chorus, verse. No need to make it any more complicated than that, and if it's ABCA or ABCB or most any combination of verses and choruses the C section is the bridge. It goes away from the A and B sections then bridges back.

And "middle eight" does not refer to the B section. the middle 8 is the bridge. It is not the verse and not the chorus. I've never heard a song described as verse middle 8 verse. Jackhammer111 (talk) 21:30, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Over-generalized?

"(typically, a song consists of first verse, bridge, chorus, second verse, bridge, chorus, middle eight, chorus )." I'm not a musicologist, but as a lay person I find it questionable that songs are that similar across the board.Kdammers (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The article is about Thirty-two-bar form, the statement was just missing context. Hyacinth (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Removed: Song structure

• A typical song structure employing a middle 8 is:

       xxxx  xxxx    xxxx  xxxx    xxxxxxxx  xxxx     xxxx
Intro-{Verse-Chorus}{Verse-Chorus}-Middle 8-{Chorus}-{Chorus}-(Outro)

I removed the above after removing the 'bridges' (since the middle eight already is the bridge) as the phrases in 32-bar form are eight bars long and if I count how long the sections must be, they cut eight bars in half. Also, the example we have above, "Crazy", is the chorus. Hyacinth (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I feel like that diagram is way easier to understand than this article in its current super-unclear state. Damienivan (talk) 01:46, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Article needs structure/restructuring

It doesn't have a table of contents, a separate intro section, or a section clearly defining the essence of Thirty-two-bar form. There are two separate lists of examples for some reason. I hope somebody who understands the topic can become slightly bold and reorganize the article. Thank you.CountMacula (talk) 19:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Difference between ternary and 32-bar form

This sentence from "History" :
> Though the 32-bar form resembles the ternary form of the operatic da capo aria, it did not become common until the late 1910s.
Is this sentence suggesting that 32-bar form is a type of ternary form, which is related to the specific kind of ternary form of the operatic da capo aria; or does it suggest that ternary form is specific to classical music and that the 32-bar form is not a type of ternary form? Awelotta (talk) 14:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)