Talk:Thomas Blake Glover

Order of the Rising Sun

Glover is traditionally known as the first non-Japanese to be awarded the Order of the Rising Sun However, that singular honor actually belongs to U.S. Army Col. J.R. Wasson who, according to the New York Times, was given "the decoration of the Rising Sun, of the Imperial Order of Meiji, a distinction no other foreigner ever enjoyed." The Times reported that U.S. President Grant sent the colonel to Japan as a military instructor; and he commanded Japanese troops during an 1874 punitive expedition against Formosa. Subsequently, the colonel was recognized by Emperor Meiji as a consequence of his conduct during this minor military campaign.<.ref>"A Victory for the Chinese; Japanese Driven with Heavy Loss from Ping-yang", New York Times, August 22, 1894.<./ref> --Ooperhoofd (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge of Glover House, Aberdeen

A short article, notable mostly for Glover's living there, but is now a museum to him. Unless it can be expanded beyond a stub to stand alone, it should be merged here. Rodhullandemu 01:48, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Masonry

I have undone this edit as it makes unsourced speculations and conclusions about a picture. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

For reference, this is material from the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia page

Japanese Wikipedia: スコットランド系フリーメイソンリー（フリーメイソン）といわれるが、根拠はない。邸内にはコンパスと定規を組み合わせたフリーメイソンリー特有のマークが刻まれた石柱があるが、これはもともとグラバー邸にあったものではない。フリーメイソンリーのロッジ（集会所）にあったものを1966年（昭和41年）に寄贈され、移設したものである。

And this is an even better photo of the gate, with the masonic symbols plainly visible [1]

I will see about getting that photo into the Wikipedia commons, or maybe go take one myself, and see what kind of literature they have on site.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 13:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the refs you have added. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. The newpaper article ref was already cited in the lead, actually, but I thought it should be cited again with respect to the "first Western building" quote. The author of that article has written a book about Glover. The book by Jansen is probably the best books in English on the relevant period.

As far as the Masonic lure is concerned, there was a sizable community of Westerners in Nagasaki, and there was a Masonic temple built there. The temple isn't there any more, and all that remains is the gate, which was moved to Glover's former house along with a lot of other artifacts, as it now serves as a museum.

I will have to find the sources that state some have speculated that Glover was a Freemason, and others have claimed him to have been one, but there is no proof that he was.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:54, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The claims about "illegal smuggling" are clear from the source which specifies smuggling of specific people to Britain, and does not support the rest of the claim as worded. I read the source. We stick to the source. Collect (talk) 18:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

That passage is certainly not very well written, but that is partly because it is a complicated scenario. The smuggling of people out of Japan to the West was illegal, thus it is called "smuggling". Apparently, it has become necessary to be more precise with the text due to the upswing in interest on this article. You might want to read the Japan Times article, which includes

...he was even more directly involved in hiding and smuggling abroad for technical training the so-called Satsuma 18 under Godai Tomoatsu, some of whom settled in Aberdeen.

and

...he turned instead to arming the main rebel clans both against overseas enemies and each other — as well as, in a reality he well understood, against the central bakufu government.

...during the 1860s, he became Kyushu’s biggest arms dealer. Kyushu in turn was able to establish itself as Japan’s most dangerous and volatile political region, with rebel clans increasingly disobeying the bakufu...

With regard to arms sales, some were above board, some weren't. If you have access to the Jansen book, read footnote 44 on p. 253 for a reference to "above-board sales", and read the paragraph on the following page that includes

In 1865 a new British minister, Harry Parkes, arrived from China. For a time he was prepared to give the bakufu full recognition as Japan's treaty-making government, but before long he agreed with Glover in the view that British interests lay in broadening trade as much as possible, and Tokugawa attempts to control and channel trade should be resisted or sabotaged. Thus, precisely during the period when Choshu was desperately seeking arms for its stand against the bakufu, British policy was inclined to favor such trade. There was never any doubt about Glover's position; in talks with Kido, who complained about the Tokugawa blockade...

I gather you understand what a "blockade" is. Apparently I will have to read the other book in English that covers Glover to balance the text and fill out the details. I don't have time to go through the Jansen book any further at present, but editing the text can wait until I've read the other book. (unsigned)

Unfortunately, you seem to be "reading between the lines" - which is one thing editors are specifically not to do on Wikipedia. I certainly know what a "blockade" is, and also know that a "blockade" may, itself, not be "legal" as viewed by others. Preventing a person from daring to be educated is such a "blockade." Indeed, generally speaking, smuggling a person out of a country for purposes of getting an education is not regarded as criminal in most places. Collect (talk) 20:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The blockade was a trade blockade aimed at preventing rebellious groups from obtaining arms. The prohibition on leaving the country was a separate matter. I suggest you look at Sakoku if you are not familiar with modern Japanese history.

I'm not reading between the lines, as I'm fairly well-studied on the subject matter.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The cite you gave referred specifically to the smuggling of people out of a country in order to be educated. Using it for a different claim is a big problem here. As for "(it) was a trade blockade" what do you think a Blockade generally entails? The US sent a pasesenger ship to England past a German official blockade - but we do not assert that the Lusitania was "illegally running a blockade", as a rule <g>. Lastly, assertion of "I am an expert" on any subject does not work on Wikipedia - we are instructed to use what the reliable sources say, not what we say we "know" on a topic. In fact, some of those in the past who most boasted of their c,v,s were later found to have greatly embelished them, so there is a reasonable fear of straying from the general policies and guidelines just on a person declaring themselves an expert. I happen to be an "expert" on a few things, and I would never use that as a reason for any edit here at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The passages I cited were done so as a courtesy. There are various mentions of smuggling people in Jansen, but apparently you haven't read that. Do not assume an air of authority when addressing me. I'm aware of the relevant policies, and your condescending attitude is anything but collegiate.

Moreover, insinuating that I am one among editors that have "boasted of the c,v,s" and accusing me of "embellishment" is a violation of WP:NPA.

I will expand and revise the text in due time, after reading the only other RS on the subject of the article. If you have any further objections at that point to the manner in which I paraphrase reliably sourced material, please raise them in a manner that is devoid of personal attacks.

And one more thing, since it seems you didn't bother checking the wikilinked article I also cited, as a courtesy, I'll post the opening paragraph from the lead here for everyone's benefit

Sakoku (鎖国, "chained country") was the foreign relations policy of Japan under which no foreigner could enter nor could any Japanese leave the country on penalty of death. The policy was enacted by the Tokugawa shogunate under Tokugawa Iemitsu through a number of edicts and policies from 1633–39 and remained in effect until 1853 with the arrival of the Black Ships of Commodore Matthew Perry and the forcible opening of Japan to Western trade. It was still illegal to leave Japan until the Meiji Restoration (1868).

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 10:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a useful conversation to have. Please keep it friendly. Span (talk) 11:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Noting however the original claims in the article:

In 1859, Glover crossed from Shanghai to Nagasaki and worked initially for Jardine Matheson buying Japanese green tea. Two years later, he founded his own firm, Glover Trading Co. (Guraba-Shokai). His first major success was as a supplier of ships, guns and gunpowder, which he sold illegally to the rebellious Satsuma, Chōshū and Tosa clans in Japan during the 1860s.

His business was based in Nagasaki, and it was here that he had his home constructed, the first Western-style building in Japan. His former residence in Nagasaki, now a museum, is laden with masonic symbols. Although there are no official Masonic Lodge records or the like to prove that Glover was a Freemason, he is often associated with the secret society by both Japanese and foreign writers.

Your source does not say "illegally sold gunpowder" and there is appreciable material in the source which refers specifically to him smuggling people out to be educated. The "blockade" was not considered "legal" by other nations, and the claim as stated is thus misleading - as reflecting neither outside opinion nor the content of the source as worded in the source. The second section uses OR based on a description of a flickr image which was loudly rebuffed at RS/N - and the weird claim that althought there are no records showing Glover to be a Mason that is is often associated" with Masonry - which you kindly legt unsourced entirely. And since I would note I did indeed read the article cited your snark is quite unhelpful here. Cheers - and recall what I and others have said - we abide by Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and not by what you WP:KNOW to tbe the WP:TRUTH. Collect (talk) 12:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Let's recall that you are the editor who deleted two paragraphs of text without knowing anything about the subject matter simply because they appeared to be unsourced. According to Wikipedia rules, I suppose the more correct course of editing would have been to leave "needs citation" tags, perhaps, or simply deleted the Masonry related material, as that seems to have been your initial target. The references to Freemasonry were on the article page before I arrived and as posted above, on the Japanese page as well. It is qualified as heresay in both instances.

Moreover, I was not the main contributor of content to either of those passages, so your accusing me of making edits misrepresenting sources is a false accusation and aimed at maligning ma as an editor. It is a blatant personal attack. I would suggest that you check the history of the article before doing that again.

I first edited the article in November 2012. The following is the corresponding text from September 2010.Version with Masonic references from 29 September 2010

In 1859, Glover crossed from Shanghai to Nagasaki and worked initially for Jardine Matheson buying Japanese green tea. Two years later, he founded his own firm, Glover Trading Co. (Guraba-Shokai). His first major success was as a merchant for ships, guns and gunpowder sold illegally to the rebellious Satsuma, Chōshū and Tosa clans in Japan during the 1860s. His business was based in Nagasaki, and it was here that he had his home constructed, the first Western-style building in Japan. There is no evidence to show that Glover was a Freemason, although he is often associated with the Masonic Lodge by both Japanese and foreign writers.

Now that you seem to be here trying to paint a morally upright picture of the individual Jansen describes as having no scruples on p. 253-4

Whatever scruples Jardines may have had, Glover had none.

But I assume that you read that sentence since you inserted the text from the following sentence regarding the smuggling of Ito Hirobumi, etc.

And what is the source of you statement that other countries not considering the blockade was "legal"? And how would that change the status of Glover's actions to the legitimate Japanese government?--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Let us recall that there is WP:AGF for Wikipedia - and that removal of unsourced or improperly sourced material is reasonable. When a claim is made which is entirely unsupported by the source then a "cn tag" is not required for removal - in fact, editors have been "removed" for misusing sources on Wikipedia. And I do not care who added the material or when or why - the idea is to improve the article not to score points in some sort of game. We have a rreally strange concept - Wikipedia artickes are written by referring to claims made by reliable source, and only such sources. And as I have no interest in painting anyone as a saint nor sinner, I am concerned that you seem to feel that the article would be a hagiography if my edits stood. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, I wasn't involved in the activities under discussion, as all of my knowledge on the topic comes from sources, all of which meet WP:RS criteria, to the best of my knowledge.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

That's good. Collect (talk) 17:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

May I suggest that Glover's freemasonry (or not) is an interesting question but could be moved further down the page? I can't see how to do this or I would do it myself. Historian (talk) 00:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

References

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