Talk:Thomas Ferens/GA1

GA Review

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The article, in my opinion, needs some work in order to become a Good article. Here is my review:

1. General impression: I think the article gives to much weight to the charitable contribution of Ferens. Indeed, the majority of the text is about his gifts to the city of Hull. Ferens served 13 years in Parliament, but the article contains only a few sentences about that time. Can you provide more information about the bills he supported or opposed and his views on the World War I? What was his position in the Liberal Party (UK)? Can you say more about Ferens as a Justice of Peace or member of Privy Council? The list is not exhaustive as other parts may need expansion as well.

   • I take your point regarding the relative paucity of information about his parliamentary career. The problem is that he was the parliamentary equivalent of wikignome. He didn't like the limelight and he wasn't a great orator. I did go through his contributions in the House of Commons but there really wasn't much there. But I will have another look and see if I can find anything.

   I think the few people who do find their way to this article are most likely to be interested in Ferens as philanthropist which, imo, is his defining characteristic; and especially in his relationship with the city of Hull. That said, I of course included as much information I could find about all aspects of his life. There are not a great many sources. The main ones are the ODNB and his Times obituary. For the rest it was a case of trawling newspapers and general histories. To be honest, I think I may have come pretty close to the FA criterion regarding exhausting sources. I hope this doesn't come across as defensive, I just wanted to give you my view of the article. I'll do my best to address as many of the issues you've raised as I can.

   • I've added further parliamentary contributions.

2. The lead:
   1. He was the Member of Parliament for Hull East for 13 years, and served the city as a Justice of the Peace and as High Steward. It is not clear what city is meant here? I assume this is Kingston upon Hull. Please, clarify.

      • Yes. Hull East is one of the three parliamentary constituencies in Hull. It was linked in the info box but not the lead. I've added the link to the lead for clarification.

        This part should be rewritten. The link is not enough. Ruslik_Zero 07:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

      • How do you feel about this now that the lead is rewritten?

   2. He donated £250,000 and a large plot of land to found what is now the University of Hull. This sentence from the first paragraph duplicates the following sentence from the second paragraph: ... and a donation of £250,000 for the establishment of University College (now the University of Hull).

      • Fixed that. I think the second 250k crept in while the article was awaiting review.

   3. I suggest expanding the lead to three paragraphs (especially if new information is added as I suggested in the point 1 above).

      • Done.

3. Early life:
   1. While teaching at the Brunswick Sunday School he met Ester Ellen (Ettie) Field, a merchant’s daughter. Was she a teacher, a student or somebody else? What was her educational and family background?

      • I added a few of Ettie's personal details. She was a fellow teacher.

   2. Till Ferens separated from his wife ... Please, name his wife.

      • Think I'm probably going to draw a blank on this one. Till was Ferens' estranged adoptive son. I think it would be tricky to track down anything on his wife. The detail about Till's marriage is in Ferens' ONDB entry, but I don't have anything further.

4. Politics and public life:
   1. Hansard records that his first ... Please, clarify who Hansard was.

      • Hansard is a written record of parliamentary debates. I've modified the link so that it points to United Kingdom section of the article.

        See 2.1 above. (I thought "Hansard" is a name.)Ruslik_Zero 07:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

      • I've added a definition of Hansard.

   2. Charles Murchinson, was “busy digging out Little Navy’ speeches of Mr Ferens in 1909 Please, clarify what this is about.

      • It's a play on "Little Englander" . I've added a clarification.,

   3. ... sentenced to death for murder at York Assizes. Please, clarify what York Assizes is. (I know that this was a court, but others may not know).

      • I've modified the link so it points to the England and Wales section of the Assize Court article. I could add a bit more information into this article, but I'm inclined to leave just as a link. What do you think?

5. A benevelont man:
   1. The donations were to be used to build a new art gallery for the city in Victoria Square, on the site of the former church. Does this refer to the St. Johns church mentioned in the previous sentence?

      • Yes the two references to the site of the former church are to the same place. Hopefully this is clearer now that I've added the location of the university college. I've reformatted the paragraph.

   2. The college was to be built on an eighteen and a half acre site which Ferens had previously donated. Does this refer to the site mentioned in the first paragraph of this section (i.e. St. Johns church)?

      • No. The university college is in the east of the city. I've added a clarification.

6. Legacy:
   1. In 1930, ill health prevented Ferens from attending the company’s general meeting. It was the first he had missed in 50 years Can you provide us with the date of this meeting?

      • Yep. I've changed the date to March 1930. I should have made it clear that it was the Annual Meeting, and I've fixed that, too.

   2. The last two paragraphs read as a glorification of Ferens. I suggest removing the last paragraph and rewriting the preceding paragraph in a more neutral style.

      • I hear what you're saying on this one, and I half expected it to crop up in the review. My feeling is that to describe him in that way is actually to call a spade a spade, and so is neutral. He really was well thought of by pretty much everyone, and his motivation for pretty much all he did really was simple altruism. He's well thought of in the city, and the city is indebted to him.

        The problem is that your unlikely to find a source for the last paragraph. This is your personal opinion and therefore WP:OR. Ruslik_Zero 19:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

      • I've added citations as you requested, Ruslik. I don't think we should forget that sources are required only for information that is likely to be challenged. I'd genuinely be surprised if any of our readers challenged Ferens as one of Hull's greatest benefactors.

      I removed the last paragraph myself. Ruslik_Zero 11:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

7. References:
   1. The note 28 does not contain information about author, publisher and the date of publication.

      • If you click on the note (which is now #29), it takes you down to the relevant entry in the references section which had Audit Commission as author and 2003 as date. I've added Audit Commission as publisher.

   2. Can references in 'References' section be arranged in the alphabetical order?

      • Good point. Fixed that.

Ruslik (talk) 09:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ruslik, thanks for your thorough and helpful review. I'll work through the points you've raised over the next few days. --MoreThings (talk) 11:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 21:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 22:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 01:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 14:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 14:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 17:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

--MoreThings (talk) 22:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Passed. Ruslik_Zero 11:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice one, Ruslik. Thanks for the review. I'm still not convinced regarding the last paragraph. I'll give it some thought and see if I can reword it. --MoreThings (talk) 13:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)