Talk:Thomas Horlander

Horlander retirement

@141.116.160.52: Hasn't Horlander retired per his retirement ceremony already? Why are my edits constantly being undone? SuperWIKI (talk) 02:35, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Neovu79: @KingEdinburgh: @Thewolfchild: Might need an opinion here. SuperWIKI (talk) 04:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

This is hard to say. Normally when an officer retires, they have their retirement ceremony between a month and 90 days before their official retirement. This is to allow the officer to use up any unused accrued leave, since the DoD does not pay out unused leave in lump sum. The officer is technically still on active duty until that leave is completely used up. It is unknown how much unused leave Horlander has accrued. Neovu79 (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

If so, does that mean Horlander still occupies his present position, or is he still on active duty with no assignment? How to proceed? Need a consensus before I proceed with the edits, to prevent an edit war. SuperWIKI (talk) 04:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

No, if a change-in-office ceremony occurred, or if he vacated the office, then he is no longer the military deputy for budget. He technically has no assignment and he is officially in transition for retirement at this point. Neovu79 (talk) 04:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

What's the best strategy if the agreed edits kept being undone? SuperWIKI (talk) 04:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Normally if I were editing it, if I don't have the official retirement date on-hand as a source, I would amend Horlander's article as if he is retired, and state that he served as military deputy for budget from 2 August 2017 to 23 June 2021 and that he retired shortly after. Neovu79 (talk) 04:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Neovu79, he seems to have a good solution here. Also, note to @SuperWIKI:, pings don't work with IP users. I placed a notice on their talk page inviting them to join this discussion. Lastly, wanted to mention the IP address belongs to the Pentagon (+army.mil) fyi - wolf 12:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

His IP address belongs to the Pentagon???? I am getting more confused here. Are actual people from the Pentagon editing this page? "These changes are made by his professional staff?" SuperWIKI (talk) 12:08, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Certainly seems like there could be a conflict of interest here. Hopefully they will join this discussion before editing the article any further. - wolf 13:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Latest IP user, 214.60.76.193 (talk), is also from the Pentagon. Will post same invite and notices to their talk page. fyi - wolf 14:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

• (came here from WP:ANEW) Wouldn't it make more sense to state, based on the video, that he is about to retire, but not refer to him as actually retired until there is a reliable source that says he is? I do not believe that video counts as proof he is currently retired, just that he plans on retiring soon. In particular, while Neovu79 is probably either right or mostly right, I don't think we can assume he is using up his accrued leave. This is OR, but when my dad retired from the USAF, his ceremony was a solid 2 weeks before he stopped working (not using up leave, but actually working). In his case, there were other circumstances that caused this, but my point is that we don't know if there are other circumstances for Horlander as well. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Floquenbeam You do make a good point. There are different scenarios that could happen. I've seen officers work past their retirement ceremony in a holding assignment, as they have already used up their all of their leave. I have also seen officer get a lump sum, but only if they have less than 30 days of leave remaining. However, it is very rare for a general and flag officer use up their leave as they can accrue up to 120 days and the demand on their job is high. They are allowed to get paid a lump sum of up to 30 days of remaining leave. But, they would forfeit any leave that exceeds that. Since no one wants to loose up to 90 days of pay, a general or flag officer will normally use up, up to 90 days of leave, then take a lump sum of the final 30 days. Neovu79 (talk) 22:47, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think if anything the issue here is miscommunication, which is why it would be helpful is they (the IPs) would participate in this discussion. I don't believe they intend to be disruptive (or deceptive, ie: socking), but there should be a way to prevent further disruption since there is no engagement here, which is why I filed the ANEW report. (imho) - wolf 15:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

To give my two cents, Major General Paul A. Chamberlain (currently Director for Army Budget) is confirmed for promotion to lieutenant general and assignment to replace General Horlander as military deputy for budget. Position-wise, I wouldn't mind leaving Horlander as he is in his current post until Chamberlain has officially assumed the aforementioned office. Signs that this has happened include (from the Army General Officer Management Office):

• Horlander's assignment end date changing from Present to Jun 21 or a later date
• Chamberlain's rank changing to LTG and the Military Deputy assignment being added
• LTG Horlander no longer appearing on the Leadership page of the official website.

That covers Horlander position-wise. Retirement-wise, we can say that Horlander will be transitioning into retirement, but has not retired yet. Thus, we can state that "Horlander's retirement ceremony occurred on (insert date here). Officially claiming Horlander has retired should not be stated until either 90 days have lapsed since the date of his retirement ceremony, Horlander's GOMO page officially says "GOMO Transition" status, or another source definitively says "LTG(R) Thomas Horlander".SuperWIKI (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a good solution, User:SuperWIKI. I don't think anyone would object to that. I'm not 100% sure of the 90 days part, but I like the general approach. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: All three conditions are now met. Horlander's assignment ended in August 2021 with Chamberlain promoted to LTG on August 2, 2021. I will now make the necessary changes. SuperWIKI (talk) 03:43, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for following up, this page had fallen completely off my radar. I now notice (too late) that we never actually implemented your suggestion of 30 June, but I guess all is well now, at least. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)