Talk:Thomas Niedermayer

Article lede issues

At present the lede of the article's first sentence merely says that Mr Niedermayer was only "kidnapped" by the IRA and only adds that he "died in their custody" in a subsequent sentence, this is clear obfuscation in order to minimise the IRA's culpability. The assault on Niedermayer with a blunt instrument was no mere accident, while it is not clear whether or not his death was specifically murder, the assault he suffered which caused his death was certainly intentional; to say otherwise is a denial of the known facts.

Wikipedia does not use such language to describe other cases where a person was unlawfully killed by a detaining organization, whether it be a state or a violent non-state actor and whether the death was ultimately determined to be murder or manslaughter; they frankly state they were killed by the forces holding them. 92.30.2.106 (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You don't get to relitigate a criminal trial based on your own opinion of the events. You may also benefit in reading manslaughter. Kathleen's bike (talk) 13:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Nice way of avoiding the issues I raised. 92.30.6.163 (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

That's because I couldn't care less what you say, only what reliable sources say. Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be unable to actually understand what words mean. Reliable sources say Mr Niedermayer was killed, you appear not to understand the meaning of the word "killed" or the definitions of "murder", "manslaughter", or "homicide", in which case you probably should not be editing Wikipedia. 92.30.6.163 (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Further reading: homicide

Homicide is an act in which a human causes the death of another human. A homicide requires only a volitional act or an omission that causes the death of another, and thus a homicide may result from accidental, reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm.

The disambiguation page killing defines homicide as "one human killing another" and list of types of killing defines manslaughter as "murder with mitigating circumstances". 92.30.6.163 (talk) 00:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how explaining in more detail can possibly be "obfuscating" when removing said detail does exactly that. FDW777 (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence, the one which appears in web search engines, at present reads only that Niedermayer was "kidnapped"; this obfuscates the severity of his abduction; namely that it resulted in his death. When a person notable for being a kidnap victim was killed by their captors (whether the death was determined to be murder or manslaughter) Wikipedia typically states in the first sentence that they were "kidnapped and killed by [x]". Manslaughter is typically considered a graver crime than kidnapping alone.

Related pages use this format, such as Disappearance of Peter Wilson, which says Wilson was "was abducted and killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army". 89.240.206.244 (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

We don't write articles in order to ensure they display "properly" in search engine results. The first sentence is not required to include all the information that summarises the article, that is the job of the lead as a whole. See guidance at WP:LEAD. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I do not believe you are acting in good faith, your claim that "manslaughter is not killing" is one of the strangest comments I have ever heard from anybody, and this is the matter at hand. The fact you seem to be unable to acknowledge the legal and popular definitions of common words indicates that your native biases appear to be steering your conduct. Taking a look at your edit history, you seem to be dedicated to watering-down and obfuscating potentially negative perceptions of the behaviour of the IRA, seemingly stripping them of any trace of human agency or personal responsibility and treating them as if they are not human beings but instinctual animals or acts of god. 89.240.206.244 (talk) 23:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

When/where did I say "manslaughter is not killing"? Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

You said ""killed" implies deliberate intent, which wasn't established during the court case".

As demonstrated with Wikipedia sources, "killed" is distinct from "murder"; "killed" is a neutral term to describe the ending of a life by a deliberate act of a third party, whether it be lawful or unlawful and whether the intention be death or otherwise. "Killed" refers to all homicide, "murder" is a specific category of homicide; you do not have the authority to invent your own definitions of words and to assert that "manslaughter" is not the same as "killing".

• When the article was created on 30 June 2010 the lede read "kidnapped and later murdered".
• The creator of the article amended this to read "kidnapped and killed" on 2 July 2010, this remained the wording used until May 2018.
• On 20 May 2018 this was changed to "kidnapped and died in the hands of the Provisional IRA". This wording lasted until 27 December 2023 when it was changed to "kidnapped [...] and died from a violent attack in their custody"
• The current wording, splitting the kidnapping and killing into separate sentences, was inserted as recently as 28 December 2023

In the 14 years since the article was created, Niedermayer's kidnapping and death were both included in the initial sentence until just 7 months ago. 92.21.248.228 (talk) 12:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If the following reliable sources are not good enough, then I can only conclude Kathleen's Bike is acting in bad faith.

• BBC News: "The granddaughter of a German businessman killed by the IRA 50 years ago has planted a tree in Belfast close to where his body was found"
• Irish News: "IRA kidnapping and killing of German businessman Thomas Niedermayer told in new documentary"
• The Guardian: "The kidnapping and killing of Thomas Niedermayer by the Provisional IRA is given deeply moving family context and gripping historical background"
• RTE News: "he was killed by his captors when he tried to escape shortly after he was taken"

The historian Richard English initially stated in "Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA" (2008) that Niedermayer's death was "possibly a heart attack", however in his latest book "Does Counter-Terrorism Work?" he calls the incident a "kidnapping and callous murder", indicating he has changed his opinion based upon new evidence. 92.21.248.228 (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

You should read Lost Lives, which is the definitive work on deaths during the Troubles. It details the post mortem report stating he had two skull fractures, one of which could have caused his death. However the post mortem also suggested he could have died from asphyxiation or a heart attack. That would suggest to me the article needs amending in the exact opposite way you want to change it, in order to avoid an inappropriate cause/effect construction in the lead. Kathleen's bike (talk) 02:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that the bulk of reliable sources do not agree, I rather suspect you are cherrypicking whatever is most convenient for your views. Demanding specific selected reading rather than taking the available sources as a whole is extremely suspicious. 92.21.248.228 (talk) 04:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Lazy summarising by sources isn't really relevant. The facts aren't actually in dispute. Fact #1, the cause of Thomas Niedermayer's death isn't actually known. Fact #2, one person was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Once again you are directly equating the word "killing" with the word "murder", which is not accurate as I demonstrated earlier. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 08:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw this mentioned at the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Recent reliable sources on both sides of the Irish Sea have no difficulty saying that the IRA killed Niedermayer. There's a long article in the Dublin Review of Books discussing David Blake Knox's 2019 book. There's plenty of ambiguity about how exactly Niedermayer died, and the article discusses that. The article has no problem saying that Niedermayer was killed. That's certainly in line with the legal outcome, in which John Bradley was convicted of manslaughter. Mackensen (talk) 13:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The article didn't discuss that at all, until I made sure it did. For some reason the IP editor objects to content such as this, for unclear reasons. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I did not object to those statements and never touched them, do not misrepresent me. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Also; you seem not to have understood what @Mackensen was actually saying; they were saying the Dublin Review of Books article talked about the ambiguity and has no problem with saying that Niedermayer was killed, they were not talking about the Wikipedia article. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that was my main point. I apologize for the unintended ambiguity. Mackensen (talk) 21:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Article Lede: opening sentence and nature of death - should the opening sentence be changed to "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA"?

Should the first sentence continue to read "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped by the Provisional IRA" or be reverted back to "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA"? 78.147.140.112 (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

My Comment: We need to settle once and for all what the opening sentence ought to say about Niedermayer's abduction and death. For many years the sentence read that Niedermayer was "kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA"; in 2018 this was changed to "kidnapped and died in the hands of the Provisional IRA". In December 2023 this was even further toned down to say only "kidnapped by the Provisional IRA", with his death only mentioned in a subsequent sentence. I do not believe this to fully capture the severity of the case; to merely say he was kidnapped could imply he was ultimately rescued by the authorities or released by his captors. I believe the original wording of "kidnapped and killed" ought to be restored.

The user "Kathleen's Bike" appears to contend that the word "killed" exclusively refers to cases in which there was a murder conviction, I believe this to be a dishonest statement; manslaughter and murder are both forms of homicide, which is a broad category referring to the death of a human at the hands of another human; nobody disputes that both Mr Niedermayer and his kidnappers were humans, therefore his death was by definition a homicide since the cause of death was determined to be physical violence inflicted by his captors due to the presence of injuries to his skull inflicted prior to death which showed no signs of healing. Whether or not his death was the intended outcome of the assault is immaterial. Even if the (doubtful) claim Niedermayer died from a coincidental unrelated heart attack is true, the failure of his captors to seek medical treatment would be considered criminal negligence since by abducting him they held all responsibility for his welfare.

Under British law the crime of manslaughter[1] comprises: 1) intent to murder with mitigating circumstances, 2) gross negligence manslaughter, and 3) unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter. The latter two do not include the intent to kill but in which death resulted from an act one could reasonable foresee could be dangerous to life; assault with a blunt instrument, particularly to the head, resulting in death certainly qualifies. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 14:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

"For many years" holds no weight at all. For many years this article was in fact wrong, until I recently fixed it. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The statement of "therefore his death was by definition a homicide since the cause of death was determined to be physical violence inflicted by his captors due to the presence of injuries to his skull inflicted prior to death which showed no signs of healing" is simply a false statement, as the source cited in my diff in the comment above makes clear. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Suffocation and failure to seek medical attention for a person suffering a cardiac arrest would also qualify as homicide; this is considered Gross Negligence Manslaughter under British law. I had addressed this in saying "Even if the (doubtful) claim Niedermayer died from a coincidental unrelated heart attack is true, the failure of his captors to seek medical treatment would be considered criminal negligence since by abducting him they held all responsibility for his welfare." 78.147.140.112 (talk) 14:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

What "British law" are you talking about? Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Northern Ireland Public Prosecution Service uses the same definitions for manslaughter as the Crown Prosecution Service in England and Wales, therefore you are clearly being deliberately ignorant (Scots Law uses "culpable homicide" to refer to the crime of manslaughter, but Northern Ireland does not use terminology from Scots Law). 78.147.140.112 (talk) 15:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Since the Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland wasn't established until 2005, your reply is specious and not germane to this discussion. Kathleen's bike (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

And yours is equally specious. I cited the CPS' definition of manslaughter because the CPS definitions were the ones used by the police at the time in the 1970s. You are not being honest in your sniping. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This is not a brief, neutral statement, or question about the issue. What exactly are your proposing? Isaidnoway (talk) 16:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I did my best, I wanted to properly address the issues at hand to try to mitigate Kathleen's Bike's "sniping" behaviour.

My proposal is that the opening sentence ought to be changed back to "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA". The source cherrypicked by KB rarely uses the construction "x person was killed by y group" to describe -any- death; the usual construction is to cite the exact cause of death; for example "x person was shot by y group"; therefore KB's claims are largely without foundation since they ignore the general nature of how entries are compiled in that text. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 17:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Well if that is the question you want to ask, then just ask that question - should the opening sentence be changed to "Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA". And then move your commentary down below. Make it a simple question so people responding to the RfC can understand exactly what is being proposed. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I fear I was having an overreaction to "Kathleen's Bike"'s snarky one-liner comments and wanted to make a comprehensive statement. I have attempted to amend it appropriately. 78.147.140.112 (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

IP editor, please refrain from personal attacks on your fellow editor. This is a collaborative project and such attacks are a violation of policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Cullen328 (talk) 23:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies, but the case is extremely frustrating.

I am the IP editor, made an account to simplify things.

• A BBC and RTE co-produced documentary about the case is entitled Face Down: The Killing of Thomas Niedermayer, which interviews members of the Niedermayer family and a variety of experts and non-family members involved in the case, including police investigators and a former IRA member. The word "killing" is routinely used throughout.

The only clear forensic evidence on Mr Niedermayer's remains were skull fractures, determined to have been caused by being struck with the butt of a Browning 9mm pistol. As the remains were almost entirely skeletal, claims about coincidental suffocation or heart failure as the primary cause of death and not the assault are purely conjecture and are not based on the forensic evidence since these would not leave behind any trace on the bones.

Wikipedia does not usually mince words when describing individuals who were convicted of manslaughter in a court of law. The article about the sexual predator Sidney Cooke, also convicted of manslaughter in the UK in the 1980s, even goes so far as to describe him as a murderer. The case for which he was convicted of manslaughter was the death of Jason Swift; the case is comparable to that of Thomas Niedermayer insofar as the exact cause and intentionality of death was disputed, resulting in a conviction for manslaughter rather than murder.

I am not arguing that this article ought to say "murder", in fact I think the Sidney Cooke article ought to be amended slightly to change the introductory sentence from saying "murderer" to "killer". BRMSF (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

We're not interested in your own opinions about how Thomas Niedermayer died, especially ones contradicted by the very, very reliable Lost Lives. Kathleen's bike (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

These are not my "own opinions" but observations based on the facts. There is no dispute that Mr Niedermayer's remains indicated he had been struck on the head with a blunt instrument with such force as to leave marks on his skull.

The exact quote from Lost Lives is this:

Post-mortem reports showed he had two skull fractures, one of which could have caused death. Examination revealed it could have been caused by a blow from a Browning automatic pistol. The post-mortem suggested he could also have died from asphyxiation or a heart attack.

I am not in fact totally beholden to retaining "blunt force trauma" as cause of death. BRMSF (talk) 16:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

We're not interested in your own "observations", which seek to exclude anything you disagree with, either. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to change the lead to say that Niedermayer was "kidnapped and killed" by the Provisional IRA. That matches what reliable sources say on the subject, and those sources are aware of the questions surrounding the actual manner of Niedermayer's death. Mackensen (talk) 02:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose simply "kidnapped and killed" without some kind of qualification. Simply saying "killed" would match many other articles about people who were killed (and some who were kidnapped then killed) by the IRA, but this is a slightly different case in that the IRA didn't actually intend to kill him, but he was killed accidentally (per David Blake Knox and trial). Kathleen's bike (talk) 06:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  Intentionality distinguishes manslaughter from murder, but does not absolve a person of responsibility for killing a person by virtue of their deliberate actions. The article Killing of David Wilkie is another 1980s manslaughter case in which a group of individuals brought about a man's death through their actions and who were originally charged with murder with the charge later changed to manslaughter.

  The article R v Hancock adds the following:

  The defendants' stated intention had been to frighten a person, but another was killed. The law, as the judgement of the whole court (a per curiam decision) was held to hinge on the relationship between foresight of the range of results of taking a particular action and the result of that action which must include a specific direction or legal mention of considering the probability of death or serious injury resulting, and other directions which explain the difference between the offence of manslaughter and that of murder.

  The Wilkie affair is in fact less clear cut than the case of Thomas Niedermayer; since Wilkie was not specifically targeted at all while there was a far more focused targeting of Niedermayer; Wilkie was not known to his killers and they did not set out to do him any harm specifically, while Niedermayer had been kidnapped and was at the mercy of his captors and the harm they inflicted to him was deliberate harm against him as a specific individual.

  Keep in mind I specified "harm", not "death". Striking a man with a blunt object and possibly suffocating him is a deliberate act of harm, regardless of whether the intention was to kill or to injure. BRMSF (talk) 17:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support – kidnapped and killed – that is the overwhelming general consensus according to published reliable sources which makes it DUE for the lead sentence per MOS:LEADREL – emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to published reliable sources. And it does not need any kind of qualification, because that is exactly what happened, he was kidnapped and killed by the IRA. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Or, as proven by other sources, he was "accidentally killed by the kidnap gang". Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  That same article says "It seemed probable that he died soon after he was kidnapped, possibly from natural causes."

  This indicates the author of the article may not have been in command of the full details of the case. It is agreed by all parties that Niedermayer was struck with a blunt instrument and set upon by multiple men simultaneously, and possibly also had his breathing restricted; as such the death could not possibly be considered "natural causes" as the death was a direct consequence of the behaviour of his abductors toward him. BRMSF (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• This indicates the author of the article was in command of the full details, since one of the possible causes of death established by the post-mortem was a heart attack, which is natural causes! If you think anyone claiming accidental death is in error, then you're going to have to ignore David Blake Knox's book (which is the most significant, comprehensive book devoted to the Niedermayer kidnapping, since he also says accidental. Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  I have never said the killing was intentional; the assault which caused the death was intentional however.

  I am struggling to see what your actual point is. BRMSF (talk) 21:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• You are, apparently, seeking to suggest RTÉ don't know what they are talking about since they say he was killed accidentally (note, this is a different meaning from "died accidentally" which I am not in any way suggesting). If you genuinely wish to suggest that, then you will also have to suggest David Blake Knox doesn't know what he's talking about despite writing a lengthy book on the subject. Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

  You have focused on and become obsessed with "heart attack" as the cause of death; this was a suggested alternative hypothesis. Lost Lives states one of the blows to Niedermayer's head could have caused death. You are contradicting sources you yourself provided. BRMSF (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Same source (RTÉ) - killed by his IRA guards, killed by his captors. And it doesn't make any difference whether it was by accident or on purpose, if kidnappers accidentally kill their victim, they've still killed the victim. So it is DUE, and accurate, to say in the lead sentence, he was kidnapped and killed by the IRA. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• And your reason for objecting to the qualifier is what then? Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I have edited the lead to state that Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA - have also changed cause of death to "assault" since this avoids any issues with the exact cause of death being disputed - nobody denies that Niedermayer died from being assaulted; suffocation and blunt force trauma are both forms of assault. Have also made the information about the fates of Niedermayer's wife and daughters more clear; to describe a person's struggle with bulimia as suicide is inaccurate.BRMSF (talk) 20:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from making premature changes when the RFC has not concluded. Also "died by suicide" is the correct term for someone who dies by suicide, oddly enough. Asphyxiation or heart attacks aren't forms of assault either Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

So every victim of bulimia is a suicide then? BRMSF (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village_pump (policy)/Archive_164#RFC: "Committed_suicide"_language. She died from drowning after walking into the sea. Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Renate Niedermayer, Niedermayer's daughter, died from complications of bulimia, which you have decided to assert is suicide. BRMSF (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

You are the editor that changed Ingeborg's death from suicide. The Irish Times say had killed herself" in relation to Renate, that's suicide. Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Renate died from organ failure relating to bulimia, as a more recent Irish Times article which I had cited said. BRMSF (talk) 22:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support – kidnapped and killed – As per isaidnoway; killed does not imply motive or intent, merely caused the death of. -- MacAddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

May I suggest to BRMSF (talk · contribs) and Kathleen's bike (talk · contribs) that discussions of questions other than whether to amend the lede to say "kidnapped and killed" be moved to other sections? It's going to be hard for other users to follow what's being discussed. By my count, Kathleen's bike is the only participant who objects to that wording. Mackensen (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Due to @Kathleen's bike's intractability and refusal to meaningfully discuss, I have been forced to open an ANI here. I do not understand what they are even saying at this point and it is clear the issue needs to be brought to a higher level. BRMSF (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Back to the original point

Since the above is just a dog chasing its tail, this needs to focus back on the original point of what the lede should say.

I believe the introductory sentence ought to say Thomas Niedermayer [...] was kidnapped and killed by the Provisional IRA since this what all of the reliable sources say happened and captures the full gravity of the case very succinctly. BRMSF (talk) 08:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

This section break doesn't really help and further breaks up the RfC. I would recommend just adding your bulleted suggestion to the thread. -- MacAddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. This is a little disruptive. The current RfC is not perfect and was not perfectly launched, but it's still on-going and aught to be respected. Marcus Markup (talk) 11:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)