Talk:Thomas Tallis/Archive 1

Archive 1

General Remarks

Note to self or anyone who has time or inclination: need to research further any possible relation between Spem in alium and Ecce beatam lucem by Alessandro Striggio (maybe first performed 1568, pub 1587). Neither work can be dated precisely, and it is very possible that the Medici, Striggio's employers, were not to be outdone by Tallis; it is also possible that Striggio wrote his first and someone like Ferrabosco brought the music to England to goad him. These are the only two polyphonic compositions from the Renaissance I know for 40 voices (I don't know any for MORE) and they are a most interesting coincidence. Antandrus 04:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Phillips in his notes on the Tallis Scholars 1985 recording of Spem in Alium follows Fenlon & Keyte in suggesting the opposite theory - that Striggio's work was known to Tallis following Striggio's visit to London in 1567.

Aside 'Most well-known work' Spem v Lamentations - Interesting how things change - 35 years ago the Lamentations would have been much the more well-known work. I remember waking up back then to my first hearing of Spem in Alium (one Sunday morning on Radio 3), and going out and buying the King's College version - no one else in the house knew it, and one of them (a Mahler fan, a pathologist working on the morbidity of smoking!) thanked me for finding the most beautiful piece of music he'd ever heard... Linuxlad 08:36, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, when I was in grad school the Lamentations were probably the better-known. As of now--I'm not sure, but my feeling is they get about equal air-time, at least here in the States. The first time I ever heard Spem was one of my formative musical experiences--and I still have trouble believing that such a thing is even possible to write. Managing 40 independent voices is equivalent in difficulty to painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Regarding Striggio vs Tallis, I wish I could read those Phillips program notes you allude to. I'm writing the Striggio article (maybe tonight when I'm home from work) and I'll put something in about Striggio maybe being first ... Striggio's differs in also using instrumental doublings on all the parts. As a side note, the influence of Italians in England prior to musica transalpina in 1588 is perhaps underestimated still. More research on the way ... Antandrus 16:23, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK from Gimell CDGIM 006 (Tallis Scholars 1985 recording of Spem in Alium etc)

Phillips writes:- 'No-one is certain what prompted Tallis to write this piece or why he chose 40 voice parts. The simplest explanation is that he was taking the number 40, often presented in the Bible as having a mystical significance. It has been suggested that S i A was designed to celebrate the 40th birthday of a reigning monarch (either Mary's in 1556 or Elizabeth 1's in 1573) (ref - Paul Doe 'Tallis' (OUP) p 41). A firmer hypothesis (ref Iain Fenton & Hugh Keyte, 'Early Music' July 1980, pp329ff) attributes the idea of a 40-part motet to A Striggio, who was in London in 1567 and probably had with him the score of Ecce b. l... Perhaps Tallis was impressed and challenged by this. Denis Stevens (Early Music, April 1982 pp171ff) goes further with this suggestion and believes that S i A was first performed in the Long Gallery of Arundel House in London in 1570 or 1571, commissioned by the Duke of Norfolk.The performers were a choir of men and probably boys directed by the composer,with the vocal lines reinforced by instruments as well. ...' Linuxlad 19:03, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ps Phillips mentions a 36-part Deo Gratias by Ockeghem... and a 54-part Missa Salisburgensis by(?) Biber.

The attribution of that Missa salisburgensis is difficult (originally it was attrib to Benevoli, later to Biber)--I wish I could hear it! --but it seems to be more homophonic than polyphonic, in the 17th-century retrospective prima prattica style. That 36-part piece by Ockeghem is usually listed as of doubtful authenticity, but frankly I can't think of a contemporary of Doc Ock who'd have been capable of pulling off such a feat. Thank you for putting these notes in here! I'll use them for my Striggio writeup. Antandrus 02:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

NB all these Tallis Scholars' release notes can be found at:-

http://www.gimell.com/notesindex.html

Linuxlad 19:45, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

I think the description as "best known work" should be changed. It is still very much a matter of opinion. I would nominate Tallis's Canon as his best-known work! Bluewave 16:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It's hard for me to believe that Spem in Alium is as popular in performance as the Lamentations...you need just one-eighth the number of people for the one as for the other, after all! (And isn't there still a lot of debate about why he wrote it?) I myself have only heard Spem in concert once that I can recall, a very odd performance at Aspen years ago when they used a lot of instrumental doubling. The Tanglewood Festival Chorus did it at Tanglewood a couple of years back but I did not get to hear it. I must say that I find it an amazing accomplishment (both to compose and to sing) but not actually all that interesting as music. He is so busy just keeping 40 oranges in the air that he can't really do very interesting things with those oranges. The musical values suffer to a degree, I feel. Thee's a lot of triad-hopping going on as I recall. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 18:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

More than 40 voices

I read of a piece that was composed for 60 voices, either by Striggio or Tallis, which was however lost.

I read in the liner notes for Utopia Triumphans (a CD) that Tallis was inspired to "answer" (i.e. beat?) Striggio's composition. This could have been inference though. I will check when I get home.

NB both 40-voice pieces are in the same key and are about the same length, strengthening the theory that the composers were aware of the other work.

And Tallis is my favourite renaissance composer to listen to, yay!

---

Yes, Striggio evidently composed a 60 voice Mass which he toured around Europe before taking his 40 voice motet to England. Both the Mass and the motet are basically blocked arpeggios - i.e. not compositionally all that amazing, although I'm sure the effect of all those massed voices (Striggio had his own 60 voice choir, apparently) was pretty impressive. That's the reason Spem in Alium includes that section towards the end of all the jumping C major arpeggios - it's the most boring part of Spem by far!, and a clear reference to Striggio's earlier motet, making the argument that Tallis was composing Spem to "answer back" to Striggio pretty compelling. (But there is another, more recent, very intriguing possibility that was recently drawn to my attention: that Tallis composed Spem in homage to the ascention of Mary. See http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=16297 for complete background and analysis of Spem. A very interesting piece, although not Tallis's finest IMO. Cheers, Alastair alastair@tudor-consort.org.nz

January 30?

I'd be interested to know more about the January 30 date for Tallis's birth - given that even the birth year 1505 is a conjecture.

I suspect it may have been picked up unwittingly from the BBC3 site, which announced on Jan. 30, 2005:

13:00 - The Early Music Show - Lucie Skeaping introduces a live and interactive request programme to celebrate the generally agreed 500th anniversary of the birth of Thomas Tallis.

It seems as if they were referring to the year, not the exact date - though any more info would be welcome.

Kerry (kmccarth@duke.edu)

Hm, none of my print sources give a January 30 date, and it was added to the article on January 30, 2005 by User:Sj: [1]. Your hypothesis may indeed be correct, and I'm taking the liberty of removing the January 30 date. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 04:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Jan 30 is "celebrated" as Tallis's birthday merely as a tradition, although unfortunately I don't know where the tradition started. Given that we don't even know which year he was born in (I personally think sometime closer to 1510 is far more likely than 1505), Jan 30 is just a guess. Cheers, Alastair

I hadn't heard of the association with Jan 30. In the early 1840s 'Tallis Days' were celebrated at Westminster Abbey in late October - on or about the Feast of St Jude on 28 October - which at that time was supposed to be his birthday. Sue (s.cole@unimelb.edu.au) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.6.243 (talk) 07:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

well written

The entry is quite beautifully written. Well done.--Luis Fernandes Nov. 20, 2005

notes on works

We seem to have lost some detail on spem in alium and the Lamentations (some time round about 14th Nov.) I see both works are redlinked... Is someone going to work up these separately? Linuxlad 23:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it appears the connection to Striggio has vanished. Hm.

Both Spem and Lamentations richly deserve articles ... :-) Antandrus (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Tallis portrait

Just to note that there are no portraits of Tallis that date from his lifetime; the only supposed portrait that exists (shown as part of the article) dates from at leats 100 years after Tallis's death and probably is only a slight likeness. See the programme notes for any of the releases in Chapelle du Roi's Thomas Tallis: Complete Works series. Perhaps the caption for the photo could be adjusted slightly? Cheers, Alastair

Gaude gloriosi Dei Mater

Given the compositional style of Tallis' Gaude gloriosi Dei Mater (which survives only in manuscript form), it is at least possible that this work was composed much earlier than attributed in the article - most likely late in the reign of Henry VIII and near the end of the time earlier in Tallis' life when he composed other Votive Antiphons. This view is in accordance with Paul Fugler (1989), writing in the performance notes for the Taverner Consort/Choir recordings of Tallis' Latin Church Music (an adequate performance of Gaude gloriosi... is the first track of the second CD). Of course, Andrew Carwood's 2005 notes are more in tune with the article, although I am not convinced that Tallis' six-part (versus 5-part previously employed) choirs and the lack of duets (there are trios and quartets, however) tip the scales one way or the other. Chuck 16:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Couple of funky bits

I am not a Tallis expert by any means, but...

First, there's something odd about the way this sentence is coded: "Two of Tallis' major works, Gaude gloriosa Dei Mater and the Christmas Mass Puer natus est nobis are from this period." If you look at the main page I think you'll see what I mean. Since I don't know what it's supposed to be I won't tinker but thought I would at least point this out. Also, the article can't decide if he was born c. 1505 or c. 1510. Again, I don't know what the scholarly consensus is so I won't make a change but this ought to be dealt with at some point. And isn't there more to be said about a) his Catholicism, and b) his relationship with Byrd? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Tallis' Sexuality

Tallis' sexuality. The excellent new television series "The Tudors" on Show Time has Thomas Tallis as a gay man. If there is any scholarly evidence to support this. It is odd that this elaborate television shows would portray that if it were not true. Any Tallis scholar can chime in on this?

The likelihood of this ever being established is minimal to non-existent, it seems to me. Besides, didn't he have a wife to whom he willed his second-best bed? Also, please sign your posts so we know who you are. Four ~ should do it, or you can click the signature button up there with the formatting buttons at the top of the editing box. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I just took this out of the article:

A highly fictionalised interpretation of Tallis's arrival at the court of Henry VIII was offered in the 2007 Showtime series The Tudors, in which Tallis is played by English actor, Joe van Moyland. His character is shown resisting the sexual advances of various palace maids, before embarking on an homosexual affair with one of the king's favourites. This storyline is not historically accurate.

Fictionalised accounts of a person's life do not belong in the biography section. If someone feels this is significant enough to re-add, please put it in a "Fictionalised representations of Tallis" section, or something similarly named. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 01:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As the series progresses, it portays Tallis as Bisexual, no Gay.LiPollis 04:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to interject, have been discussing The Tudors at length on sausagenet forums. I would not describe this series as excellent. It could have been excellent. They chose however to be very liberal with historical accuracy in order to better dramatise it. Some of the writing and scripting was not too good. The costumes, sets, special effects were excellent. Attention to set detail was very good. The casting has gone horribly, horribly wrong though with some of the central figures badly miscast imho. This has spoiled the production and has probably distorted an entire generations view of Henry VIII and his times. C Williams 81.78.94.53 (talk) 01:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Valid recordings with full rights

The person who removed the link to my recording of Tallis "If ye love me" may be under the impression that I had not got the full rights to the recording. May I point out that I do have full rights. I sang it, I mixed it and the original score is in the public domain. Please leave the link back in. People are genuinely interested in hearing recordings, as my webstats show. Thanks David (aka the dwsChorale)

• You are free to upload anything to which you own rights, under the GFDL or a compatible license, you are not free to promote your own website. Simple. Guy (Help!) 11:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

OK uploaded an ogg file and linked to it. Is that OK?

Talk page comment moved from article

In the Showtime series "The Tudors" Thomas Tallis is shown to have a homosexual affair with Sir William Compton. Is there any support for this assertion or is it merely a fictional rewrite of history. Does anyone know any information on this? —Preceding comment moved from article, where it was added by 66.177.205.210 (talk • contribs)

It's a fictional rewrite of history. See the thread above entitled "Tallis' sexuality". Antandrus (talk) 16:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Striggio. Biber. Instrumental music?

From the description (will listen to it soon and confirm) I gather that the BBC Discovering Music program describes and compares the works by Striggio and Tallis, at least. As to the Salzburg Mass, definitely by Biber, yes (and at least once if not twice recorded in the last few years, though the "twice" may be a non-commercial, broadcast recording I'm thinking of.) Could use if not a worklist in this article then a link to one possibly, with dates and estimates for the few works for which they're possible, sources, though the linked-to article would be better since that would detract from the readability of the primary I expect?...

As to the last topic:

John Milsom (in The Musical Times, Vol. 126, No. 1713 (Nov., 1985), pp. 658-662) gives evidence that "I Call and Cry to Thee", whose music was later used for the motet "O Sacrum Convivium" it seems generally agreed, was originally a work for instrumental consort. Which leaves the question- how much purely instrumental music by Tallis do we have? Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)