Talk:Throne Hall of Dongola/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 17:00, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Some of the paraphrasing here looks a bit close. If that was you using the University of Warsaw as a source, could you tweak it a bit? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:00, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Done. LeGabrie (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC) Edit: By the way, the Obluski et al 2013 citation is broken. Any idea why? LeGabrie (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You're eager. It may be tomorrow before I can do any more on this. Although numerous cites don't match their references, perhaps you could look at that?

Gog the Mild (talk) 17:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Done. LeGabrie (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC) Edit: By the way, the Obluski et al 2013 citation is broken. Any idea why? LeGabrie (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Edit clash. I'll look at it tomorrow. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:25, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

1. You have Obłuski in the reference and Obluski in the sfn (ł).
2. You can only use a max of four names in the sfn, so delete Calaforra–Rzepka. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Aaaaah. Fixed. LeGabrie (talk) 11:24, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• Several sfns have Godlweski. They will work better if you add the "e".
• Your first reference doesn't have any cites pointing to it.
• Any chance of a Wiki-map to show the location? (I have added one. Delete it if you don't think it works.)

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Fixed first two points, map looks fine. LeGabrie (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• Following up cite 13 I cannot find where it mentions depotations or population decline. Could you point out where I am going wrong?

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

First paragraph: "The entire northern part of the agglomeration was abandoned and the population number dropped substantially in effect of a series of deportations." LeGabrie (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

D'oh! Apologies. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• I have done some copy editing. Could you check it and flag up anything you are not happy with.
• The measurements need convert templates, m to ft.
• What were the "red bricks" made of?
• "The walls of the staircase were plastered..." Do you mean plastered, a protective wall covering; or plastered as in covered with many examples of; or both?

Mud bricks are bricks made of clay and dung and are dried by laying in the sun, while red bricks are additionally burnt in fire. With "plastered" I mean white wall coverings. LeGabrie (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

• I am not sure that you are correct with prince and kingdom, but even if you aren't I think that I can let it go at GA level.
• Bricks - I thought so. These are usually referred to as "fired" (not "burnt"), see brick#Methods of manufacture#fired brick.
• Plastered. I guessed that you weren't aware of the other meaming. I have altered the wording slightly to make this clear. Let me know if you don't like it.
• If you are happy with how the article now stands - and please let me know if you aren't - then I hope to have a detailed run through the prose tomorrow. If that is ok, then you are done.

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:51, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Rephrased the plaster part. LeGabrie (talk) 13:21, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's better than what I had written. Good job.

• "It is a two-storey brick building situated on a rocky hill, overlooking its surroundings." "overlooking its surroundings" doesn't really say anything - everywhere overlooks its surroundings. I would suggest either saying just what it overlooks or delete this bit.
• "the most important, symbolic edifice in the medieval history of Sudan" The quote in the source starts with "perhaps" and I think that you need to add this.
• "successfully defended its independence from the Islamic onslaught in the 7th century" "onslaught" seems a bit PoV. Perhaps 'expansion'?

"Onslaught" is the term used by the source I am citing ("Alone of all the enemies who stood against the all-conquering Muslim armies in the early phases of their expansion, the Nubians survived the onslaught.").

• "Between the 9th and 11th centuries the town enjoyed a Golden Age" "Golden Age" should be lower case.
• "The actual throne hall was to be found on the upper floor" This sounds a little clunky. Perhaps 'The actual throne hall was on the upper floor'?
• "During the 11th—12th centuries they were altered." Tha should be an en dash, not an em dash.
• "and the application of plaster on the Christian wall paintings." Replacing "on" with 'over' may make this a little clearer.
• "Barshambu was not very popular among his subjects due to his attitude and his reforms." Very is PoV, could you delete "very".
• "It is possible that the decision to transform the Throne Hall into a mosque cost him his life." Do we know how (or why) he died?

He had no support since he was unpopular, as explained in the article. In 1317 a nephew (and hence legitimate heir) of the deposed Kudanbes/Karanbas, Kanz ad-Dawla, fought Barshambu. During these events Barshambu was murdered by his own entrusteds. Werner 2013, p. 138.

• " Neither of them dared to restore the former function of the building, as the Mamluk sultans supported its new function." "Neither" means two. if you mean more than two you should use 'None'.
• "a local Sheikh is recorded to have renovated the mosque extensively." Lower case s.
• The last section is too long, so I have put in a suggested paragraph. See what you think.
• Cites 4 and 7 don't link to the reference.

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• It's looking good. Nearly there.
• "Onslaught" I am not happy, but given that the source is impeccable it is difficult to argue, so I will let it go.
• Death of Barshambu. It is just about ok as it is, but it is a little unclear how the mosque conversion may have cost him his life as it is not explained how he died. Suggestion only: consider amending to something like 'It is possible that the decision to transform the Throne Hall into a mosque cost him his life, as he was murdered by his Christian courtiers.' If, of course, the sources will support this.

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think Godlewski 2013 argues that he became unpopular because of the conversion of the throne hall, hence ultimately resulting in his death. Will rephrase the sentence tomorrow. LeGabrie (talk) 22:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@LeGabrie: Fair enough. Meanwhile, another quality historical African article which meets all of the GA criteria. Congratulations. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, that was one in-depth review. LeGabrie (talk) 13:18, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Umm. I try to pitch all of my GA assessments at the same level, and not to ask any more than the standards require. But I am more than happy to receive feedback - if you think that I was tougher than a GAN merited let me know and I will try to learn from it for the future. Meanwhile, well done again, rapid and constructive responses to my comments and a very solid article. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

That was meant as a compliment. You proposed a lot of improvements and even read through the sources. LeGabrie (talk) 14:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Oops. Thank you. Assessors are supposed to spot check sources at GAN, but I know that a lot AGF. Glad that you appreciated it. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed