Talk:Tianxia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Pure nonsense

Why did we devote 75% of the article to the film? Tianxia is one of the most common phrases in Chinese - nearly every ancient Chinese source you see has a very broad reference or a whole chapter devoted to it - Lunyu, Daxue, Zhuangzi, etc. Tianxia is the subject of some of the most common Chinese proverbs and phrases: 天下无难事, 天下第一, 天下大事, 天下为公, 三分天下 of Zhuge Liang, 天下布武 of Nobunaga Oda, 治国平天下 of Confucius, to name a few. Tianxia, "Under heaven", has the same usage as "World". Having 75% of the article about a mere film is like having 75% of the article describing the Globe Theatre in the article World. I have removed large chunks of pathetic nonsense and irrelevant or POV claims from the article. Now let's put some real info in the article. Aran|heru|nar 12:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest excerpting information from the Chinese Wikipedia. The Chinese article about Tianxia is very detailed and covers the belief of Tianxia from both China and surrounding countries like Japan, Korea and Vietnam. Aran|heru|nar 10:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of translation work needs to be done from the Chinese version of the article. Is there a tag we can stick at the top of the article that requests help to translate content from other language versions of the article? If not, I can create one. There are a lot of Chinese articles with content that could be translated into their English counterparts. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found this - Template:Translation request, but it looks like the tag is used when you want to list an article under Wikipedia:Translation into English so that the usual WP bureaucratic procedures can take place. I was just thinking of something simpler, something similar to Template:expand. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Article needs a lot of work

I gotta say, this article is really kind of crappy when you compare it to the Chinese version. If I can muster up the time, maybe I'll do some translation work. But I do urge any other editors who can translate Chinese to English to also contribute if they have the time. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Japanese invasion of China

The Japanese Wikipedia defines 天下統一 'unification of all under heaven' as follows:

天下統一（てんかとういつ/てんがとういつ）は、主に日本の戦国時代から江戸時代初期にかけて、日本全土（琉球と蝦夷地の大半を除く）を、自らの支配下に置き日本全土を統一する事を指す。

Rough translation: Tenka tōitsu, mainly from the Sengoku period to the early years of the Edo period, referred to the placing of the whole of Japan (excluding Ryuku and Ezo) under one's control and uniting the whole of Japan.

However, there is a historical dimension to this:

「天下」の本来の意味では、その支配地域に境界はなく、秀吉は1590年に日本を統一すると、92年からは対明出兵(文禄・慶長の役)を実行する。秀吉の朝鮮出兵は失敗に終わり、徳川将軍家が支配する江戸時代になると、「天下」は日本列島に限る意味で用いられた。

Rough translation: In the original meaning of tenka, there were no boundaries to the area of control. Having unified Japan in 1590, Hideyoshi in 1592 sent troops against the Ming (Bunroku and Keicho campaigns). Hideyoshi's campaign against Korea failed and in the Edo period under the control of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the use of 'tenka' was confined to the Japanese islands.

Roadrunner added the words 'and their ultimate goal was to invade the Asian mainland and become Emperor of China'. This is a broad-brush statement and puts a very particular slant on the Japanese and the goals of Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. Before adding such provocative statements, it would be useful to ensure that the entire picture is being conveyed. (For instance, try translating the entire section on 天下 in Japan from the Chinese Wikipedia).

Bathrobe 03:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Start of Translation Work

I've written a first draft of the first two paragraphs. I've gone for a fairly literal translation, so it would be a good idea to edit this some before incorporating it into the article: - The expression "天下" as a term for the world was first used by the Han people of China. Later, the idea spread to other parts of East Asia. The idea deeply influenced the history of East Asia and the peoples of East Asia. The expression's basic meaning is "(all) under the common sky" (普天之下). However, the meaning is not just a concept of geography or space. It is also used to describe a particular kind of geographical location. The concept of "all under heaven" is determined by the worldview of a particular region, people, or nation. The idea should be considered to reflect a particular region's or people's worldview. Index: 1 The Idea 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 2 Historical Evolution 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 3 Further Reading 4 Notes 5 References

The Idea China In China, "all under heaven" indicates all that was ruled by the Chinese emperor. It was the theory of rule of that particular area. This area under control of the Chinese court was called Xia (夏), Hua (華), Zhongxia (中夏), Zhonghua (中華), Zhongguo (中國), and other names. This was distinguished from the surrounding "four sides" and the Yi (夷 "the barbarians".) However, if regions were put under Chinese imperial rule, then they would also be called part of "all under heaven". (See also: Sinocentrism, Chinese Imperialism, Tian). - I'm not sure of the correct translation for 秩序原理. It must mean something like "orderly theory" or perhaps "determined by", but I'm not sure. Linguixperiments (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I've started cleaning up this translation. Linguixperiments (talk) 01:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

秩序 is very synonymous with our English word "order", and 原理 essentially means "principle". The term just means "guiding principle" or "principle of order". White whirlwind (talk) 04:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It would be very helpful if someone who knows Japanese could translate some terms: 江田船山古墳 鐵劍 Likewise, there are terms in the Vietnamese and Korean sections of the Chinese article which I don't know how to translate. Linguixperiments (talk) 03:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Done. White whirlwind (talk) 04:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for getting those first two paragraphs done, Linguixperiments. I'll take over from here. White whirlwind (talk) 23:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation Complete

I rearranged and combined several sections to ensure the redundancies in the Chinese version were kept out of the translation. Some material related to Korea and Vietnam has been omitted. This was a fairly technical translation and these sorts of articles shouldn't be undertaken except by the more expert translators. If anyone encounters a particularly difficult, technical, or otherwise important translation (preferably on a Classical or ancient subject), post it on my Talk Page and I'll do it. White whirlwind (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Good job with the translation. I've gone through it, and so far haven't found any major problems. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:52, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It'll definitely need a bit of minor editing, probably to remove the "Chinese" feel from the English. White whirlwind (talk) 05:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I do notice that every time the article refers to the concept, the word Tianxia is used, which might seem strange to non-Chinese readers. It also feels rather unnatural when discussing the concept in regards to Japan and Korea, who do not call it "Tianxia", but rather their own reading of the characters 天下. I however have no idea on how we could alternatively translate it. Although it may be awkward, it seems that this is the only way we can write it; using the phrase All under heaven for each instance in all sentences would be even more strange. If there is a suitable alternative, I'm all ears. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:01, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

English References

Interesting article. Could the reader (who may not speak or read Chinese or Japanese) also be directed to English language references for the article? That would be very useful. Thank you. Corlyon (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Can you give an example of what you mean? White whirlwind (talk) 04:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I think what he means is that for foreign-language references, we provide an English translation in the footnote. For example, from Nine exterminations:

1. ^ "Samjok (삼족 三族)" (in Korean). Doosan Encyclopedia. In ancient China and Korea, when someone committed a big crime, the three sets of relatives were annihilated for the principle of guilt by association which was referred to as 'samjok myeolmun jihwa', 고대 중국·한국 등에서는 어떤 사람이 큰 죄를 범하면 '삼족멸문지화(三族滅門之禍)'라고 하여 혈연의 삼족을 형벌에 연좌(緣坐)시키기도 하였다.

Note how the reference includes an excerpt of the text which is relevant to the article, which is then translated into English. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

What I was proposing was to include in the list of references books, articles, scholarly papers etc written in English. The list of references at the bottom of the page seems to include only Japanese language texts (if I understand them correctly). Are there any sources on Tianxia written in English? Are there articles in English - language academic journals that discuss the concept; or textbooks that include reference to Tianxia; or English language references on Chinese thought and world view that include discussions of this concept? The problem may be a lack of sources in English, but including such references would then enable the English-speaking user of Wikipedia who is not of Chinese background or is not able to read Japanese or have access to Japanese language materials to go beyond Wikipedia to follow up on their reading. This is not a criticism of the article, but a question about making it more accessible for anglophones. Thanks 24.69.69.228 (talk) 01:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC) Oops, not logged in. Corlyon (talk) 01:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I no longer have JSTOR access and am back in China, so now I have no access to (or interest in, to be honest) English-language scholarship on Chinese subjects. Perhaps you can search out English-language works on Tianxia or whatever on your own and link to it yourself, friend Corlyon? Try JSTOR (if you have access), or the periodical search from a high-level university library (such as my alma mater's, the BYU Library). Also, a really cool one is the Sino-Platonic Papers which Professor Victor Mair edits (not truly peer-reviewed but full of awesome stuff). —Preceding unsigned comment added by White whirlwind (talk • contribs) 11:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Sinoxenic terminology

I see tianxia is used throughout, even in the section discussing uses of the concept outside China. Sentences like "the Shogun was referred to as 'Man of Tianxia'" look a little strange, considering that the modern Putonghua pronunciation tianxia has never been used in Japan. I would have expected the Japanese word tenka to be used instead.

I have not changed the article myself because I can see a reasonable counterargument (it might confuse readers if the article used several different words to describe the same concept), and I don't know what Wikipedia style dictates.

But I think the actual forms of the word as used in Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. should probably be given somewhere in the article even if they are not going to be used directly. (Again, I'm not sure where that should be.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.168.195 (talk) 03:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

"天下為公" means "All is equal under heaven"?

I don't think that "天下為公" means "All is equal under heaven". "公" here, is supposed to be considered as "public, everyone" not "equal". So 天下為公 should mean, literally "under heaven(Tianxia) belongs to the public(everyone)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imyzc (talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

You need to understand the backgrounds of famous phrases before commenting on them. The phrase did originally mean what you described (its locus classicus is in the Book of Rites) but its meaning has shifted in modern times, particularly as used by Dr. Sun. It is described correctly in the article as is.  White Whirlwind  咨  07:49, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: reverted bold move; moved back to Tianxia. Treating this as a technical request to revert an undiscussed move. wbm1058 (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

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All Under of Heaven → Tianxia?AllUnder Heaven? – Please move back to the original title, which was changed without discussion, but now blocked by redirects. "All Under of Heaven" is not the common English name. It is nowhere found in a Google Search: "All Under of Heaven" except for this Wikipedia article and the edits of the perhaps good faith edits elsewhere. The history of this article in the section above very helpfully done by Wbm1058 show the tangled history of the edits by 冏, whose userpage and contribs should be checked by an admin. ch (talk) 17:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Considerations on the title of this article

My Google search found several academic sources supporting the idea that "All under heaven" is the common English meaning of Tianxia. Most of the "controversy" surrounding the English meaning seems to have been introduced by Hero (2002 film), in particular the alternate meaning "our land". Academic sources seem to form a consensus for "all under heaven" rather than "our land".

There is widespread usage of Tianxia in English-language sources, so there is no clear indication on whether we should favor Tianxia or "All under heaven". Each seems valid.

• With tianxia there is the question of whether it is a single compound word, or the two words tian xia.
• With "All under heaven" there is the question of whether heaven should be capitalized as a proper name: "All under Heaven".

The Google ngram gives no clear answer to these questions, other than indicating that the compound tianxia seems to be favored over tian xia. There is more long-term support for "All under heaven", but some of that may be from sources not related to China. Tianxia has come on strong more recently, with usage picking up since the mid-1970s. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Naming history of this article

• at 20:56, 1 November 2004 Lowellian created the article under the tile All under heaven (original version)
  • The title All under heaven was stable for 4 years, 5 months
• at 13:54, 3 April 2009 Chichui moved All under heaven to Tianxia over redirect
• at 13:58, 3 April 2009 Chichui moved Tianxia to All under heaven over redirect (Change later.)
• at 06:57, 5 April 2009‎ Chichui moved All under heaven to Tianxia over redirect: The meaning of Tianxia is disputed. Some claim the literal meaning is "Under the emperor" (天子脚下).
  • The title Tianxia was stable for 8 years, 6 months
• at 14:46, 18 October 2017 冏 moved Tianxia to Following of Heaven
• at 14:58, 18 October 2017 冏 moved Following of Heaven to All Under of Heaven

This most recent title strikes me as broken English from a non-native speaker. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

See Hero (2002 film) § Translation of "Tianxia". wbm1058 (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Hmm:

• Tian (Heaven) / Shangdi (God)
  • Tian Xia (All Under of Heaven)
  • Tian Chao (Dynasty of Heaven)
  • Tian Kehan (Khan of Heaven)
  • Tian Ming (Mandate of Heaven)
  • Tian Zi (Son of Heaven)

Just as an aside, I'm familiar with that last one from an archaeological exhibition: Son of Heaven: Imperial Arts of China

What is an "all under"? – wbm1058 (talk) 17:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

• OK. What you said was very reasonable and fair. I agree with you. let's turn this page back.--冏 (talk) 03:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)