Talk:Ticket to Ride

Ticket to Ride disambiguation

(Note: The first two comments were copied here from User talk:Lowellian to put all the discussion in one place.)

Subject to your move of Ticket to Ride there now over 200 links that should point to the song which now point to the disambig page, (the song page is now linkless!) the talkpage of the disambig page redirects to the song page. All the other Tickets to Ride appear to still be linked correctly. Wouldn't it have been much easier and clearer to have a note "For other uses see Ticket to ride (disambiguation) on the top of the song page? Perhaps you would be kind enough to review your actions. Many thanks. --Richhoncho (talk) 07:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The move has been undone. Please seek consensus before you move the page again. The Beatle song article is the primary topic and should be the main page per WP:DAB. — John Cardinal (talk) 14:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:DAB, if there is no primary topic, then the main page Ticket to Ride page should be a disambiguation page. Just saying that the Beatles song is the most primary topic does not make it so. Many Beatles song are disambiguated, among them Please Please Me (song), A Hard Day's Night (song), Help! (song), Yellow Submarine (song), The Inner Light (song), Revolution (song), Don't Let Me Down (The Beatles song), Let It Be (song), and Real Love (John Lennon song). It's questionable whether the Beatles song Ticket to Ride (song) is the most prominent use of this term; it is certainly not an overwhelmingly dominant use of this term. The board game is at least as common a usage. Google "ticket to ride". Of the hits on the first page:

• 6 hits ("Welcome - Ticket to Ride | Days of Wonder", "Ticket to Ride | Board Game | BoardGameGeek", "Ticket to Ride: Europe | Board Game | BoardGameGeek", "Amazon.com: Ticket to Ride: Toys & Games", "Xbox.com | Ticket to Ride - Game Detail Page", "Funagain Games: Ticket to Ride (revised edition)") are for the board game, including 1 for the Xbox version of the board game, Ticket to Ride (board game)
• 2 hits ("YouTube - The Beatles -- Ticket to Ride", "The Beatles - Ticket to Ride Lyrics") are for the Beatles song, Ticket to Ride (song)
• 1 hit ("Swatch TTR World Snowboard Tour: Home") is for the snowboarding competition, Ticket to Ride (World Snowboard Tour)
• 1 hit ("Ticket To Ride") is for a community ridesharing program
• 1 hit ("Ticket to Ride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia") for the Wikipedia page

—Lowellian (reply) 21:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the addition of (song) for Please Please Me, A Hard Day's Night, Help!, Let It Be and Yellow Submarine is to separate the song from the Beatle albums of the same name. Secondly, there was an otheruses box put at the top of the song article after your last move, thirdly, a Google search is bound to show up items which are commercially available now, rather than something 40-odd years ago which makes your "importance" claim look a little shoddy, forthly, we now have over 200 wikilinks pointing in the wrong direction as a result of your unilateral actions. Then taking into consideration three editors obviously disagreed with your move - 2 posts on your user page and an admin to overturn your actions should have alerted to think before you act. The comment that you made the above post as warning, merely seconds before you reverted doesn't wash. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't the admin just responding to a move request from the two editors that disputed the action? The otheruses box is irrelevant; WP:DAB policy is clear that if there is no primary use of the term, the main page for the term should be a disambiguation page. You have still provided no evidence that the Beatles song is the primary use of the term. My above post was not made as a "warning", as you say it was; it was made as an explanation for the action I was about to take. —Lowellian (reply) 23:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's clear that the Ticket to Ride song article is the primary topic, and so does Richhoncho. That makes it two to one. BUT... that's not the issue. I asked you to seek consensus, and you didn't. That indicates that you think you are right, and to hell with consensus.

By the way, Google is not the only way to determine which topic is primary. Did you consider that the other works are derived from the Beatle song?

I am going to request that the move be reverted. Given you have opposition, it's prevalent upon you to make the case for the move, not the other way around. If you seek consensus and win, fine. If you do not seek consensus, you'll just make things difficult and unpleasant and who needs that? — John Cardinal (talk) 23:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I've restored the pages to pre-move status pending the outcome of a proper move discussion. While there is as yet no clear indication that the song is the primary topic, there is also very little basis to make a peremptory move without any discussion. older ≠ wiser 23:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Now that the pages are moved back, perhaps we can discuss this.

The Beatles song was a huge hit and established the phrase. There have been books about the song, multiple artists have used it to inspire their art, multiple bands (including current acts) have covered the song, bands have been named after the song, etc. It's iconic, and it's the most common thing that most people will think of when hearing the phrase. Some of the other items in the DAB may be popular now, but none are very old and are most likely named in homage to the song, or because of the iconic phrase the song inspired. I don't think calling it primary makes it primary, I think calling it primary reflects the cultural evidence. — John Cardinal (talk) 00:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the Beatles song should be the primary. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of primary is that it is the article that people entering the term "Ticket to Ride" into the search box are looking for. From the stats at http://stats.grok.se/, it looks like the song gets twice the traffic than the game (consistently). Some of the song hits would be people looking for the game. But that should give some solid data (that needs to be interpreted to fit into this debate). I suspect that there will be more people looking for a song still heard on the radio than a video game that doesn't get as much coverage (I didn't know about it until this debate, at least). (John User:Jwy talk) 00:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The statistic that the song article got twice the traffic is meaningless because the main page, without any disambiguation phrase, was the song, so naturally most people looking for any meanings of "Ticket to Ride" always got to the song page first. And there are also other meanings of Ticket to Ride besides either the Beatles song or the board game. —Lowellian (reply) 04:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the search term frequency is the key driver. However, that can only describe what searches were done, and not why they were done. I was trying to get at why, and also why the other articles with similar names are likely named in homage to the song. — John Cardinal (talk) 01:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

For the other pages, the numbers should be accurate - they would only get to those pages if they wanted to. From that you can make various assumptions about how many of the main page hits are due to people "passing through." (John User:Jwy talk) 01:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• Beatles song seems clear Primary Topic to me, so the status quo - with clear hatnote to dab page of course - is correct. PamD (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it fairly established above that the song is the primary use. If the Xbox game had been around 30 years ago, the only reference at WP would have been a trivia section of the song. It's the number of hits that are important, not the number of entries at Google, entries can be, and often are, manipulated for commercial reasons. The two things I am upset about on this are that the first redirect was completed without bothering to amend all the articles that were then pointing to a disambiguation page and then to revert another admin. Surely an alarm bell or two should have rung? Oh, well all is well now. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the consensus has been met, but I would say that the way things are done now is the way to go: song as the main page, with a link to the disambig for everything else. Most, if not all, of the things on the disambig page have come about because of the song, which I'd say is more well-known than the board game or the book. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 08:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I just went and looked at all the other articles, and it seems that the board game isn't Beatles-themed, as I'd thought it was. (Silly me for thinking there was a Beatles board game I didn't know about.) However, anything listed on the disambig page that isn't directly related to the song has come about ~40 years after the song was released, and the song is famous enough that whoever named those other things was aware of the Beatles reference. My support for the status quo remains. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 08:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ticket to Ride which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)