Talk:Timber Sycamore/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Progress of article
I'll continue to find sources discussing this operation in the coming days. Suggestions welcome. -Darouet (talk) 22:24, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Phasing out of program
Will hope to add material on this topic in the next couple days. -Darouet (talk) 02:25, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Il Giornale
Bobfrombrockley I've reverted this one edit of yours [1] because the text you removed:
In Il Giornale, Fausto Biloslavo has reported that despite the program's secrecy, U.S. Vice President Joe Biden was photographed at the center of Zarqa in March 2015.
Is nearly identical to the text of the article being cited:
The training and equipment program is shrouded in strict secrecy, but US Vice President Joe Biden was photographed last March in the center of Zarqa.[2]
Let me know what you think. -Darouet (talk) 20:21, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
- TheTimesAreAChanging regarding this edit [3], and in part because I don't believe I'd originally added the content, I didn't have time to review the issue (I'm quite busy right now, sorry). Will look into it more if there's a dispute. -Darouet (talk) 00:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I am not sure the claim is sufficiently supported by the quoted sources. Fixed for now.My very best wishes (talk) 01:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- MVBW, that is hardly enough of an explanation to be distinguished from "I just don't like it." Can you elaborate? -Darouet (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- Just for starters, one of cited sources was this. What is it? I have no idea. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's a declassified August 2012 U.S. Department of Defense document stating that the goal of
"The West, Gulf countries, and Turkey"
in supporting the Syrian opposition is to create"a declared or undeclared Salafist principality in eastern Syria ... in order to isolate the Syrian regime, which is considered the strategic depth of the Shia expansion."
(Note that that is exactly what occurred.) The document was used to brief Congress and has since been widely discussed in serious secondary sources; it was also "debunked" in a laughably incoherent "fact check" by the Washington Post's Glenn Kessler—who misquoted the memo while dismissing its significance, denied that the U.S. was directly arming Syrian rebels at the time (on the half-truth technicality that the U.S. was merely "facilitating" Libyan arms across the Turkish border!), and even had the chutzpah to assert that the memo actually proves that"The Obama administration, in fact, drew sharp distinctions between the rebel groups."
TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:02, 1 February 2018 (UTC)- OK, thanks. I do not have time for that, so leaving this to you, guys. My very best wishes (talk) 00:20, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
- The key question about that source is whether it has anything to do with Timber Sycamore. Also, as MVBW asked in an edit summary, I linked the names of the people in the commentary section as I assumed if they were notable enough to be in the commentary section they'd be, well, notable and therefore have WP articles. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. I do not have time for that, so leaving this to you, guys. My very best wishes (talk) 00:20, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's a declassified August 2012 U.S. Department of Defense document stating that the goal of
- Just for starters, one of cited sources was this. What is it? I have no idea. My very best wishes (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- MVBW, that is hardly enough of an explanation to be distinguished from "I just don't like it." Can you elaborate? -Darouet (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I am not sure the claim is sufficiently supported by the quoted sources. Fixed for now.My very best wishes (talk) 01:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- The text in the WP article was indeed faithful to the Il Giornale article, but I don't see what it adds to a WP article on Timber Sycamore, because, despite Biloslavo's cryptic comment, it has nothing to do with it. Our article does not mention Zarqa, so the text is confusing rather than illuminating. I checked what Biden was doing there, and he was at a joint US-Jordanian training camp where Jordianians are trained, and made a speech about ISIS, which Timber Sycamore doesn't combat. I think it confuses our article and adds nothing to it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- I can see where you're coming from, but I think Biloslavo's point — in an article about Timber Sycamore — is pretty straightforward: it would be unlikely for the U.S. Vice President to appear in the middle of a town where rebel soldiers are being trained and equipped by U.S. forces for the Syrian Civil War, and for that VP to be simultaneously unaware of the CIA program that is supporting that operation. Sorry, long sentence. But it's not the reporter's job to spell all that out explicitly for an educated readership, and this kind of terse language is common in newspapers when discussing complicated international (and military) affairs. -Darouet (talk) 17:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- Darouet, I agree, and I'm not criticising Biloslavo, but I don't see how his terse point is helpful here, as it would require our readers to do the work of understanding its relevance to the article, unless we explain it, which would immediately become synth/OR. I think it is just much safer to keep it out, as it doesn't add anything usefully encyclopedic.BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:56, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
- I can see where you're coming from, but I think Biloslavo's point — in an article about Timber Sycamore — is pretty straightforward: it would be unlikely for the U.S. Vice President to appear in the middle of a town where rebel soldiers are being trained and equipped by U.S. forces for the Syrian Civil War, and for that VP to be simultaneously unaware of the CIA program that is supporting that operation. Sorry, long sentence. But it's not the reporter's job to spell all that out explicitly for an educated readership, and this kind of terse language is common in newspapers when discussing complicated international (and military) affairs. -Darouet (talk) 17:17, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
- The text in the WP article was indeed faithful to the Il Giornale article, but I don't see what it adds to a WP article on Timber Sycamore, because, despite Biloslavo's cryptic comment, it has nothing to do with it. Our article does not mention Zarqa, so the text is confusing rather than illuminating. I checked what Biden was doing there, and he was at a joint US-Jordanian training camp where Jordianians are trained, and made a speech about ISIS, which Timber Sycamore doesn't combat. I think it confuses our article and adds nothing to it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
A debate article is not an acceptable source
The article currently states that "there are approximately 50 vetted rebel groups fighting in Syria that have received weapons or training through the program since late 2012", which may or may not be true but cites a debate article by the highly partisan Charles Lister as the source for that claim and that opinion piece does not in turn cite any further sources for the claim it establishes.
An unsubstantiated opinion piece, thus a mere opinion, can not be considered an acceptable source for Wikipedia, not even if its holder held a good reputation contrary to the case with "Jihadi Charles".
The statement must thus be removed unless a proper source can be cited for the claim that the group(s) are "vetted", preferably of course including by what definition that word is used... or how many groups.
83.233.47.137 (talk) 15:51, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
I concur. I will remove it. Attack Ramon (talk) 19:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)- The information was used with attribution to The Daily Beast, which is appropriate when we don't know if it's true, but we're relating that somebody has said as much. Also, there's nothing about the statement which is inflammatory or highly dubious. I'm going to restore but will further attribute the statement to Charles Lister. I think that's fine: Lister is a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute, was a fellow at the Brookings Institute, and has written for Foreign Policy and many other outlets. Also, there's no indication Lister is "highly partisan." -Darouet (talk) 22:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
It is actually not appropriate to link to unreliable sources, especially when we don't know if it is true or not, and when we have a reliable source saying the number of such groups is unknown, If we can find Lister saying the same thing in a more reliable outlet, we can link to it. Attack Ramon (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)- I don't see a problem with including the information with proper attribution. The RSN has discussed the Daily Beast in the past and there is no consensus on if it is an RS. The general agreement seems to be use with caution (especially for BLP articles, which this isn't) and look at it case by case. In this case, the author is an analyst widely regarded as pretty authoritative on things like numbers in rebel factions, so I think this is safe to use with proper attribution to him. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:01, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- The information was used with attribution to The Daily Beast, which is appropriate when we don't know if it's true, but we're relating that somebody has said as much. Also, there's nothing about the statement which is inflammatory or highly dubious. I'm going to restore but will further attribute the statement to Charles Lister. I think that's fine: Lister is a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute, was a fellow at the Brookings Institute, and has written for Foreign Policy and many other outlets. Also, there's no indication Lister is "highly partisan." -Darouet (talk) 22:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks BobFromBrockley. @Attack Ramon: above, an IP address called Lister a "highly partisan source." Do you have a reference for that? Do you have any sources stating that the number of groups funded was larger, or smaller? Also per WP:BIASEDSOURCES, if Lister were indeed a biased source, wouldn't this Wikipedia content guideline be relevant?
"...reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject... When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "Feminist Betty Friedan wrote that..." ..."
- Ramon, would you mind please expanding on your argument? For instance, explain why Lister is an inappropriate source, even for use with attribution? And can you explain, with sources, why you believe Lister is factually incorrect here? -Darouet (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
You can ask the IP why he thinks Lister is partisan, that is not my argument. Where I agreed with the IP is that The Daily Beast is not a reliable source for material used in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources does not say we can use unreliable sources with attribution.Attack Ramon (talk) 00:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Look, no offense, but a source isn't unreliable because somebody on the internet said so. All I'm asking is for you to actually make a case, using links to experts, sources, etc. What led you to your agreement about The Daily Beast? Above, BobFromBrockley says that there's agreement at WP:RSN that the site should be used with caution, and evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Here, Lister is a known expert on the issue, and their statement is neither slanderous nor contradicted by other sources. That would suggest it's fine to use the article here, with attribution. -Darouet (talk) 02:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Lister's opinion is cited here in the New York Times [4]:
Charles Lister, a Syria expert at the Middle East Institute, said he was not surprised that the Trump administration ended the program, which armed and trained thousands of Syrian rebels. (By comparison, a $500 million Pentagon program that envisioned training and equipping 15,000 Syrian rebels over three years, was canceled in 2015 after producing only a few dozen fighters.) “In many ways, I would put the blame on the Obama administration,” Mr. Lister said of the C.I.A. program. “They never gave it the necessary resources or space to determine the dynamics of the battlefield. They were drip-feeding opposition groups just enough to survive but never enough to become dominant actors.”
I just don't think we should be using a source whose editorial mission is to "seek out scoops, scandals, and stories about secret worlds" in an encyclopedia. We can certainly use the Lister material from the NYT - as you note, that piece does not mention the part I objected to (50+ groups), and that the number has been question by other, more reputable , sources. Attack Ramon (talk) 02:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Attack Ramon, can you explain what you mean by this:
that piece does not mention the part I objected to (50+ groups), and that the number has been question by other, more reputable , sources.
? Are you saying that other, more reputable, sources have questioned the 50+? Can you link to those? Sounds useful. Without that, hard to see a problem with this source, written by a recognised expert. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:57, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Attack Ramon, can you explain what you mean by this:
- Nor is it clear, if we did find a source contesting Lister's estimate, why we wouldn't simply cite both, on behalf of our readers. It's hard to find material on classified programs, and when we do find experts commenting, readers don't benefit by excluding their commentary. -Darouet (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
The reason we shouldn't cite both is that The Daly Beast is not reliable. We shouldn't be putting up one figure from a reliable source, and contrasting it with "but this unreliable source said otherwise". Attack Ramon (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)- If you think the Daily Beast is unreliable enough never to be cited on WP, you need to take it to the RSN and get a consensus on that. In the meantime, consensus is use it with caution on a case by case basis, especially for BLP articles. There is no BLP element here, and the claim is not contentious, and the article is an analysis piece by a recognised expert so fits here perfectly well with attribution. If the claim is contested we can revisit. It's a non-issue. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
From what I read here- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion- it seems that the onus is on you to take it to RSN and get approval, as you are the one seeking to include contested material. Attack Ramon (talk) 21:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you think the Daily Beast is unreliable enough never to be cited on WP, you need to take it to the RSN and get a consensus on that. In the meantime, consensus is use it with caution on a case by case basis, especially for BLP articles. There is no BLP element here, and the claim is not contentious, and the article is an analysis piece by a recognised expert so fits here perfectly well with attribution. If the claim is contested we can revisit. It's a non-issue. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Nor is it clear, if we did find a source contesting Lister's estimate, why we wouldn't simply cite both, on behalf of our readers. It's hard to find material on classified programs, and when we do find experts commenting, readers don't benefit by excluding their commentary. -Darouet (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ramon, it seems like you you might be approaching this issue in an overly formulaic way. I also don't like The Daily Beast as a source, but it's not a fringe / neo-Nazi outfit, and it's clearly capable of posting high quality content. As a demonstration, the WP:RSN discussion, and the Lister article we're discussing, are both good examples. Even personal blogs of recognized experts can be sufficient for mention on Wikipedia with attribution, and the reason is clear: Wikipedia guidelines are not part of some game where you break or follow rules, but an effort to present reliable information to readers. There is no doubt, right now, that Lister has said, in the Daily Beast, that Timber Sycamore had supported some 50 vetted groups, nor is there any argument being made that readers should not be given this information. I'm not sure what your background is but I'd encourage you to think of these issues in general a little more practically. -Darouet (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
what does my background have to do with anything? Read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability_does_not_guarantee_inclusion Attack Ramon (talk) 21:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)- Our argument is the inclusion of this information is merited, as it improves the article. It is useful to know, surely, how many groups were vetted? Without that fact, the article could be talking about 1 group or a million, so knowing it is 50 is very helpful. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
yes, that's your argument, and I disagree with it. I think putting in material from unreliable sources, which is contradicted by reliable sources, degrades the article. Your statement above is a clear example of why that is so - we don't know that there were 50 such groups, and we have a source that says the number is actually not known. People reading this article which uses an unreliable source for the figure of '50' end up thinking that's the right number- as you apparently do , when we have better sources saying the number is not known. Attack Ramon (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Our argument is the inclusion of this information is merited, as it improves the article. It is useful to know, surely, how many groups were vetted? Without that fact, the article could be talking about 1 group or a million, so knowing it is 50 is very helpful. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ramon, it seems like you you might be approaching this issue in an overly formulaic way. I also don't like The Daily Beast as a source, but it's not a fringe / neo-Nazi outfit, and it's clearly capable of posting high quality content. As a demonstration, the WP:RSN discussion, and the Lister article we're discussing, are both good examples. Even personal blogs of recognized experts can be sufficient for mention on Wikipedia with attribution, and the reason is clear: Wikipedia guidelines are not part of some game where you break or follow rules, but an effort to present reliable information to readers. There is no doubt, right now, that Lister has said, in the Daily Beast, that Timber Sycamore had supported some 50 vetted groups, nor is there any argument being made that readers should not be given this information. I'm not sure what your background is but I'd encourage you to think of these issues in general a little more practically. -Darouet (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see where there's any contradiction between Lister saying the number of groups supported and vetted from 2012-2016 is approximately 50, and another source saying that the exact number is unknown. That just sounds like life. A reader shouldn't know this because... ? -Darouet (talk) 14:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, what's the reliable source that refutes Lister? Or even explicitly says something like "it's unknown how many groups were vetted"? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:36, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
The other source doesn't say 'the exact number is unknown", while giving an estimate or a range. It says 'the number is unknown'. If you don't see how this contradicts 'the number 50' we have a bigger problem here than just reliable sources. Attack Ramon (talk) 00:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)- Lister writes "There are currently at least 50 such vetted opposition factions... who have received assistance... since late-2012." So Lister also leaves the number of groups unknown, but sets a minimum quantity to that unknown number. -Darouet (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
If the number is unknown, it can't have a known minimum. Attack Ramon (talk) 02:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)- ... you should think about that for a bit. -Darouet (talk) 03:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
You should as well. Attack Ramon (talk) 03:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)- Suppose we have a known minimum of 50 groups. Do you know the number of groups now? Can you tell me what that number is? Or do you not know the number of groups Timber Sycamore supported? Maybe you don't know the number, but the number is not... unknown ? -Darouet (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
The requires having a known minimum. We don't have such knowledge - that claim comes from an unreliable source. Attack Ramon (talk) 14:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Suppose we have a known minimum of 50 groups. Do you know the number of groups now? Can you tell me what that number is? Or do you not know the number of groups Timber Sycamore supported? Maybe you don't know the number, but the number is not... unknown ? -Darouet (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- ... you should think about that for a bit. -Darouet (talk) 03:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Lister writes "There are currently at least 50 such vetted opposition factions... who have received assistance... since late-2012." So Lister also leaves the number of groups unknown, but sets a minimum quantity to that unknown number. -Darouet (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't find the statement in the source that says the number is unknown; can you point me to it? This piece is written six months before Lister's, by the way, and is also a debate piece rather than a report, written someone who has the same sort of job as Lister's (an expert employed by a semi-academic thinktank), but who doesn't have Lister's specific expertise on Syrian rebels. I'm not sure why it should supercede Lister's piece, rather than complement it. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
No unclassified source has yet reported in depth on the funding and full level of coordination involved, or the numbers and types of weapons being transferred, the scale of training, the numbers and types of U.S. trainers and support, or the particular Arab rebel units involved.
Unreliable sources don't suddenly become reliable when published 6 month after a reliable source, and no , it is not a "debate piece", but rather analysis, by a well known expert who holds an endowed chair at a bipartisan, nonprofit policy research organization dedicated to providing strategic insights. Attack Ramon (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Darouet on this per "Lister is a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute, was a fellow at the Brookings Institute, and has written for Foreign Policy and many other outlets". Gandydancer (talk) 15:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)