Talk:Tirat Zvi

History

In History, please add in the end of the section: "The settelment of Tirat Zvi was established on the land of the villages of al-Khunayzir and al-Zarra'a".

Source: All that remains : the Palestinian villages occupied and depopulated by Israel in 1948. Khalidi, Walid. Washington, D.C.: Institute for Palestine Studies. 1992. p. 54. ISBN 0-88728-224-5. OCLC 25632612.

I can't edit by myself due to WP:ARBPIA4 edit restrictions.

Thanks! User:Huldra Bustan1498 (talk) 16:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Bustan1498: checked and  Done, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra and Bustan1498: Hi. When you use this wording, do you first check whether the plot of land in question was legally bought by the Jewish side before the settlement was established? Is there a general policy regarding this? Thanks. Arminden (talk) 05:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Hi Doug. I thought you might be interested as well. All the best, Arminden (talk) 05:25, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Arminden Sorry, I really can't let myself get diverted from my main interests - archaeology and pseudoarchaeology - in the remaining time that I have left to be able to edit. Which I hope will be longer than predicted, but.... Doug Weller talk 07:57, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

​ Lots of health, and I hope to have you around for many more & better years to come! Arminden (talk) 10:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. But the chemo I'm having now gives me only 30% chance to be around next year. And even if it works, probably not longer. I'm upbeat still. Actually it's the Parkinson's that is a problem right now. Staggering isn't fun. Still doing 3 miles a day on my treadmill though. Doug Weller talk 10:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Dearest Doug, thankfully, nearly all I have known for the last 40-50 years and who have been given an "end date" due to C, have lived beyond, sometimes way beyond, that date. (The "record" (I think) is a girl I knew, nearly 50 years ago, who was given "max one year" left due to leukaemia; she is still alive today 😊). Your prognosis is brutal, but remember: it is only a prognosis. Wishing you all the best; Huldra (talk) 23:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. That's my plan! Doug Weller talk 06:38, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@Arminden: as Khalidi is WP:RS, I only checked him. Huldra (talk) 23:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Huldra. Sorry, but I'm afraid you didn't get my point. I wasn't suggesting Khalidi wouldn't be quotable. I see a difference between, say, Kibbutz X being built on land bought by the Jewish Agency and previously belonging to Kafr Y, so legally OK, and settlement or outpost Z stealing a hilltop from Kafr Y. Or the IDF creating a base on confiscated land, which is then turned over to a civilian group. If it's legal, the formula should be "acquired from". "Built on land of Kafr Y" is in that case misleading and wrong.

If it was a sale done by Soursuq or another absentee landlord whose ownership is in itself fishy, this must be also put in a special formula. There were enough cases though where the tenent farmers got a second payment before vacating a plot of land otherwise legally sold by the landlord, so double-paid by the Jewish side: this should also have its own standardised wording, like everything else on I/P. However, all I see in hundreds of articles is the same repetitive wording, which reads plainly as: stolen. If I sell my field, it's not mine anymore. Stolen, or confiscated by the state, is something totally different. Not making a distinction is in no way OK.

Cheers, Arminden (talk) 06:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about and the fact that there is this much ahistorical people edging these articles is really concerning. You could not even spell Sursock right. This website is filled with inaccurate information made by people who don't know the history. Are you trying to claim Sursock did not own the land? He bought it from the ottoman Turkish authorities and we have the records. This is truly ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourself. Lifeisgood12345 (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually the correct spelling is سرسق . Transliterations into French or English vary. Zero^talk 03:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

ok. you still did not answer. the brainwashing here is unreal Lifeisgood12345 (talk) 00:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I wonder whose brain you refer to. Actually, there are lots of question marks over the Sursuq ownership of the land. For example: "In 1869, one member of the Sursuq family bought large stretches of land in Palestine from the Ottoman imperial government. The land totaled 240,000 dunams and included twenty villages, with a total population of 4,000 people. For these plots, a “Mr. Sursock” paid 6,000 Ottoman lire to the Ottoman State Treasury and 12,000 lire to an unnamed politician, ostensibly in the form of a bribe."(Kristen Alff, Changing Capitalist Structures and Settler-Colonial Land Purchases in Northern Palestine, 1897–1922, International Journal of Middle East Studies (2023), 55, 675–692). And you can ask how "20 villages", some of which had existed for centuries, came to be "owned" by the Ottoman government. It is convenient to just assume that everything was legal and above board, but that's not how things worked in those days. Zero^talk 03:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

you bring one source from a random person who is clearly coming at this issue with an agenda. You only bring up one example and its the unhinged brain rot pro Palestine one. This why Wikipedia is a joke, its an oligarch of losers who don't listen to anyone else and are stuck in there own opinions. There is a very scary and concerted effort on here to try and promote narrative over history. Why not consult reputable sources like Benny Morris, Yoav Gelber, Avneri, or even Khalidi on the issue. Read about the ottoman land law of 1858 and this will all make more sense fool. Also you should know that the estimated 8000 people that were displaced through Zionist land purchases through Soursuq were all compensated for there property. Not well but they were compensated even though they had no legal obligation to pay them. This not to mention that all these tenet farmers were brought in by Soursuq himself to tend to the land that he owned in absentee. There was no such thing as private land ownership in the region pre 1858. The sovereign ruler at the end of the day is always the one who formally controls the land. Additionally, the reason the supposed 4,000 people were originally displaced on land they never had a document of ownership on, is because they refused to register there lands because they did not want to get drafted and pay taxes. You don't pay, you lose land, only in this conflict is that different because people treat Jews differently and its all antisemitism. I know you will ban me instead of respond but I don't care, the truth needs to be told and you don't get to tell lies, try again next time. Lifeisgood12345 (talk) 06:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Avneri, Claim of Dispossession, has the following mention that features well-known names. Page 230 (sourced to Central Zionist Archives): "Dr. Tawfik Canaan was active in the national Arab movement and wrote anti-Zionist articles and pamphlets. He owned land in the Beit-Shean Valley jointly with Mussa el-'Alami and Tawfik el-Husseini. The land was sold to the Jewish National Fund. Kibbutz Tirat-Zevi was founded on this land." Zero^talk 08:13, 7 April 2023 (UTC)