Talk:Tithes in Judaism

Ma'aser k'safim

You are claiming three things about Ma'aser k'safim and I find it doutful that all three (and not just two) are the case: (1) it is Jewish law (2) is in addition to the other tithes and (3) it is 10%. If all three are the case it needs to be cited and clairified. Even if you cannot (yet) give a citation for it, please try to clairify it. Do you know where in "Jewish law" it comes from? If all these are true why is there no article for it? tahc ^chat 22:06, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

For example, I see that the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia has no results for Ma'aser k'safim. tahc ^chat 20:27, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The source I cited states that “one must separate one-tenth of his annual income for tzedakah” and the footnotes (in Hebrew) cite several sources (possibly primary sources; all in Hebrew). Tithing one's monetary income is obviously not the same as tithing one's produce or cattle. For the moment, I placed a request at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism so that others may comment. Please have patience and don't revert untill consensus has been achieved. -- -- -- 21:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Let me get this straight... more than 10 million Jews all over the world are requiered to give 10% of all income every year... but not one of these 10 million people bothered to make a Wikipedia article about it? Yet there is a Wikipedia article about the minor cattle tithe? Futhermore the editors of Jewish Encyclopedia also forgot to mettion it in that work? That is your claim?

While the text (not a WP:RS, BTW) says "one must separate one-tenth of his annual income for tzedakah" we cannot tell that "tzedakah" isn't just another term for one of the other tithes (by another name or a case of one other tithes)... so we cannot claim it is an "additional tithe". If it is one of the other tithes by another name, then it needs to be removed (or at least in that other section of the article and clearly say so what it is). If it is not one of the other tithes by another name it also needs to indicate how/where it originated in Jewish law (or not claim to be Jewish law).

No, tithing one's monetary income is not "obviously not the same as tithing one's produce", since produce is a form of income, but even if it was "obviously" different, the article appears to be obviously wrong, since no one (neither you nor me) has any knowledge of how it could be Jewish law. tahc ^chat 21:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• Believe it or not, it is indeed the Jewish law that every Jew should give a tenth of their annual profit to charity. I am all for good sourcing, but that is a fact. Now go out and find sources! Debresser (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, but the wording of Deuteronomy 14:24-26 seems to be the most obvious reason "every Jews should give a tenth of their annual profit to charity." Why would we think that Ma'aser k'safim is unrelated to that tithe and also unrelated to the first tithe? tahc ^chat 18:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

So the question is what the source is for this law? Debresser (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Please see the Hebrew article Ma'aser k'safim for an interesting overview, pointing out two different possible sources. Debresser (talk) 23:21, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I see that the Hebrew article also says there is disagreement on whether (this charity) is a tenth of assets or a tenth of profit/income.

How about if we change the text to a this wording until we find a WP:RS for the disputed facts:

Ma'aser k'safim is a tithe that Jews give in modern times to charity (tzedakah). tahc ^chat 11:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The word "keren" is not precisely "assets". One does not have to give a tenth of ones capital. That would be illogical for more than one reason. The question is between the yield and the gain. However, that information is not sourced there, and to the best of my knowledge it should be from the gain.

I think the present version should be kept. 1. It is sourced. 2. Ma'aser k'safim is not just "in modern times", as you write.

I would remove the "Dubious" template. I think that there is little practical disagreement that ma'aser k'safim is given from the income or profit, not from the yield. Debresser (talk) 13:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Read the whole article -- ". כמו כן דרך חישוב העשירית (מהקרן או רק מהרווח) ישתנה בהתאם למקור."

It is "sourced" with a non-RS that does not support the claimed (as written) facts. We cannot just have a "source" for some facts and then claim others.

Ma'aser k'safim may or may not be just in modern times-- but I didn't say "just" in modern times, I said "in modern times". We do not have sources to tell use when it started. We can always add facts later as they be well cited. tahc ^chat 13:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I fucking well "Read the whole article".

The statement in question is not sourced, which is why I added a tag to it today.[1] How anyone can miss that simple fact is beyond my comprehension.

"in modern times" is vague, and only makes things worse. In addition, I see no reason to believe this law has changed much since Talmudic times, which surely is not "modern times". Debresser (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Please be civil.

If it is from Talmudic times it would be in the Talmud. If it is in the Talmud then you can cite the Talmud. Please just find such a source and then we will know if it is from Talmudic times.

I see the http://www.dafdigest.org/shekalim/Shekalim%20006.pdf "source" does claim the “ma’aser k’safim” to be "ancient" (a vague term) and also calls it a "custom". I can agree to remove "modern times" as such, and remove the dubious tag if we use this wording.

Ma'aser k'safim is a tithe that Jews give in to charity (tzedakah). tahc ^chat 17:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I will find it a lot easier to be civil when there is a good faith assumption that I am serious enough to read articles I myself link to.

That compromise is acceptable to me. Just "give" without "in". Debresser (talk) 22:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the compromise. By the way, I realized afterward that Ma'asar k'safim is more grammatically correct, as in מַעְשַׂר בְּהֵמָה.

-- -- -- 02:58, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

A quick Google search shows that the only version that have over a hundred uses are "maaser kesafim" with 2,930 uses and "ma'aser kesafim" with 1,360 uses. Debresser (talk) 08:03, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Tithe in challah?

Shouldn't a section be added talking about the portion of challah that is symbolically destroyed for the Kohanim? I'm pretty sure it's also called the tithe. LGLou (talk) 08:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

The separation of the dough-offering (also known as hafrashat challah) is generally distinguished from ordinary tithes. In fact, the Mishnah has separate tractates on tithes (First Tithe and Second Tithe), and another tractate for Challah. Wikipedia, following the same scheme has a separate article (now two articles) for the separation of the dough-offering (challah), one article entitled Dough offering, while the other is entitled Hallot. There is currently a discussion on whether or not these two articles should be merged into one article.Davidbena (talk) 01:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)