Talk:Tom Martin (ice hockey, born 1947)

Article name

The name of the article should be "Tom Martin (ice hockey b. 1947)". WP:COMMONNAME does not (as Djsasso alleges in the comment of his recent move) say the we should use people's middle names in the article name over disambiguators to distinguish people with the same name. On the contrary, it says the we should use people's "common name", and append a disambiguator if need be. Furthermore, it not consistent with other ice hockey articles to use middle names (also alleged by Djsasso); there are hosts of ice hockey player articles with disambiguators like this one. LarRan (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually when there are two hockey players with the same name we have been trying to use the middle name instead of having to have two people with the bracketed by birth date disambiguators, just look through the archives at the hockey project, its long been decided that we use middle names when possible to avoid having to have (ice hockey b. date), however for most players we don't have reliable middle name sources so we still have to use them. WP:COMMONNAME wasn't the part of the policy I was pointing to. I was pointing to the top where it says to try and name consistantly with other articles. This name meets all of the requirements at the top of the WP:NC page. It meets all the following requirements

• Easy to find – Using names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles).
• Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
• Concise – Using names and terms that are brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.)
• Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles.

It meets the first one, as there is a disambig page and anyone typing Tom Martin will find it. It meets the second one because it is very precise in that it includes the middle name. It is concise in that its not an overly long name likse (ice hockey b. date) is. And its consistent in that we try and use middle names when possible to disambiguate two hockey players with the same name. -DJSasso (talk) 14:52, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Easy to find: No improvement from before the change, as the dab page leads equally well to a page whether it has a middle name or a disambiguator. Rather, people searching for a player are more likely to know his/her occupation and approximate year of birth than his/her middle name, if he/she wasn't known by it - in which case of course that should be the name the article.
• Precise: Overprecise, and so doesn't follow what's stated in the "precision and disambiguation" section. The key expression there is "Be precise but only as precise as is needed.". LarRan (talk) 15:16, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
• Concise: No difference from before.
• Consistent: Less consistent than before, as there are more (much more) articles on hockey players having a disambiguator than there are those having a middle name acting as one.

So, at best, you have a draw (on concise). LarRan (talk) 15:16, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I mean we can bring this up yet again at the project, but there are a few hundred articles named this way. So it would take a bit to change them all. At the moment this is how its been done for years so if you want to eliminate the using the middle name we would need to bring it up at the project to gain a new consensus. I don't believe its over precises, as in the case of using a middle name we are only using their name, whereas with using ice hockey b. date we are using their profession AND their birthdate. If anything thats the overprecise.-DJSasso (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey) is the current state of naming conventions. The page is currently listed as historical because of the debate on diacritics which you are aware of, but this particular situation hasn't been debated recently. -DJSasso (talk) 16:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I've declined a speedy tag placed on Tom Martin (ice hockey b. 1947) by LarRan, because G6 is for uncontroversial maintenance only: consensus should be established before making the move, and I don't see one herre yet. Cheers, Olaf Davis (talk) 16:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 05:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Tom Raymond Martin → Tom Martin (ice hockey b. 1947) – Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ice hockey) was recently changed to favor disambiguation by year of birth over disambiguation by middle name when that middle name is not commonly used. In this case, the middle name Raymond is not commonly used in sources. Pichpich (talk) 14:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support per project decision but also in line with WP FOOTBALL and other team sports where name/sport duplications are common, seems a sensible compromise given that with modern sportspeople middle names are all but never used, wheras with e.g. a Victorian botanist they might be. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support per above and per nom. See also for example Tom Martin (ice hockey b. 1964)- changing name as proposed uses existing naming standard. Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 23:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.