Talk:Tony Russo (whistleblower)

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Shouldn't we mention who did the torturing?

Did Russo document the systematic torture of enemy combatants by Sweden, Mozambique, Luxembourg??? Burrobert (talk) 09:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Did he say it was done by the US or the South Vietnamese or both? Mztourist (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

"the witness was Anthony J. Russo, one of the first Americans to report on the systematic torture of enemy combatants by CIA operatives and other US agents in that long-gone war". From The Nation article. Burrobert (talk) 11:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I read the Nation article and I didn't see anywhere where Russo says it was the CIA who were doing the actual torturing, the article states: "Russo said a “CIA man” at the National Interrogation Center in Saigon told him in great detail on numerous occasions about the Agency’s torture techniques." I have studied the war for decades and never heard of the "CIA’s National Interrogation Center in Saigon." As far as I know Russo's RAND report has never been released, so its all just Russo's claims. The RAND publication I used extensively quotes Ellsberg on page 236: "his exposure in a classified study of “the widespread practice of beatings and torture of VC prisoners by ARVN captors and jailers, often with American advisers observing.”. So I don't think we can say it was the CIA or US military doing the torturing without having better sources. Mztourist (talk) 12:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The source for the statement that Russo documented torture by the CIA is The Nation, which is a green tick reliable source. We don't need The Nation to provide a quote from Russo confirming this. The source says this a number of times:

Russo blew the whistle on American torture policy in Vietnam

When asked about torture performed by Americans, Russo said a “CIA man” at the National Interrogation Center in Saigon ...

Then there was the torture paper that Ellsberg has repeatedly said was the first to document American complicity in the routine use of torture

Making Russo’s missing torture report public, if it still exists, would provide eyewitness data supporting the burgeoning body of evidence that CIA torture practices have a long and sordid history beginning in Vietnam.

Regarding the existence of a CIA National Interrogation Center in Saigon, our personal knowledge of the war is not relevant and we need to rely on the sources. In his own article, Russo calls it a "CIA-sponsored National Interrogation Center in Saigon". He also refers to "the CIA interrogation center in Saigon". The existence of interrogation centres is well known as discussed in the Phoenix program page.

Anyway, it is clear that Russo was reporting on the torture of NLF prisoners, so we should say that rather than "enemy combatants". Saying "enemy combatants", without clarification, may lead readers to mistakenly think Russo was reporting on the torture of U.S. prisoners by the NLF. Burrobert (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Have just had a look at the RAND report that has been used extensively in the article. Some points:

It refers to "the National Interrogation Center (NIC) or the Military Interrogation Center (MIC) in Saigon—both sponsored by the CIA".

It refers to "Russo’s ... exposure in a classified study of "the widespread practice of beatings and torture of VC prisoners by ARVN captors and jailers, often with American advisers observing" ".

It says "According to Ellsberg, Russo was subsequently fired by Charlie Wolf ... for having exposed in a classified study the widespread mistreatment and torture of Viet Cong prisoners by the ARVN—“often with American advisers observing”.

Burrobert (talk) 14:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I already provided that quote above: Ellsberg on page 236: "his exposure in a classified study of “the widespread practice of beatings and torture of VC prisoners by ARVN captors and jailers, often with American advisers observing.” So you agree with me that the torture wasn't being done by the US, but rather by the South Vietnamese. Mztourist (talk) 03:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

That statement would need to be attributed to the RAND corporation, which is not a neutral observer. We can't assume RAND is telling the full story about what Russo said. There are other sources, such as The Nation, that ascribe a more active role to the CIA in the torture that Russo reported on. For the moment, we can say that the target of the torture was National Liberation Front prisoners. Burrobert (talk) 03:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that Ellsberg's statement should be included as its hearsay on hearsay, referring to a report that has never been publicly released. The Nation story's opening para is ambiguous as it states "systematic torture of enemy combatants by CIA operatives and other US agents" which isn't then supported later in the article by a clear statement that US personnel did the torturing. I agree that the target of torture was the Vietcong. Mztourist (talk) 03:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Well, in that case, the current version is as far as we can get. Burrobert (talk) 04:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)