Talk:Top hat

john hetherington

Again removed information that does not have a contemporary valid source reference:

"On 15 January 1797, a London haberdasher, James Hetherington, wore the first top hat in public and attracted a large crowd of onlookers. He was later fined £50 for causing a public nuisance. [1]

john hetherington

Removed the misleading:

"The top hat was invented by John Hetherington, who designed and constructed a silky-covered variation of the contemporary riding hat, which had a wider brim, a lower crown, and was made of beaver. He first wore it it in public in 1797. "

john hetherington

agree with the below. the story sounds wholly apocryphal. for that to stand, i think we really need actual detail of the primary source, the supposed 'contemporary newspaper story'. accordingly, have deleted.

Source

Does anyone have a primary source for the story about the first top hat causing a riot? I have found a few other sites telling the same story, but they all seem to be quoting each other, and I can't find any sign of the supposed 'contemporary newspaper report' which would presumably form the evidence for this story.

Absent any real evidence, the story sounds highly improbable. Why would people riot at the sight of a hat? They're not that scary.

I have removed the following text from the article, because it is uncited:

According to a local news paper, he caused a riot in the streets of London. People are said to have run in terror, dogs barking, women fainting. The crowd broke the arm of an errand boy as they ran past. Hetherington was charged in court with wearing "a tall structure having a shining luster calculated to frighten timid people", and was fined £50.

--Srleffler (talk) 05:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Some editors express their feeling about a supposed apocriphicity without any positive reference to an historian sharing their analysis. They note some web sites are not valid references or some are uncited. Granted, but what about the numerous references to the contemporary press, such as the Times of January 16, 1797 or the Hatter's Journal of January 10, 1797 reporting that "John Hetherington, haberdasher of the Strand, was arraigned before the Lord Mayor for wearing a silk hat"? What is the problem here? Racconish (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I too believed it until I did some research: see John Hetherington for details. Basically, the claim that the story appeared in The Times is wholly bogus. Also, the Hatters' Gazette only began publication in 1878. Salmanazar (talk) 14:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Makes more sense. Thanks Racconish (talk) 15:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Bosch painting

There is a painting done by Heironymus Bosch between 1485 and 1490 that I could swear depicts a man wearing a top hat. Anyone know anything about this? This article gives the origin of the hat a much later date. A rather low-res download of the painting can be found at http://abcgallery.com/B/bosch/bosch32.html The man in question is at the bottom left-hand corner. Themill 2006 (UTC)

It's only a small point, but should this be hyphenated?

 No, indeed, it should not be hyphenated.

Moved to Top hat (headgear) --Mmartins 10:50, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Isn't a top hat synonymous with a castor hat? And also, weren't they also used by the Scandinavian armies during the Napoleonic Wars?

Answer Castor is french for Beaver - Hence Beaver hat, also a Top Hat. Pith Helmet 23:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC) Please note - Advance warning - I am doing full extensive research on the history of the top hat, and intend to revamp the page and correct the non-factual misconceptions soon.... Cheers Doug Pith Helmet 23:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I recently found a Marshall Fields top hat still in the origanal box. Not a mark on it. Does any know what it is work. The silk in side comes with Marshall inside the hat.... Just curious. dezinedreame@fuse.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.122.126 (talk) 05:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

To the editor who said President Kennedy did not wear a top hat to his inauguration ....

So "President John F. Kennedy was the only President of the United States NOT to wear a stovepipe hat to a presidential inauguration?" Well, then, what is this? [2] Or this?[3] Oh yes, and the same article says that Eisenhower wore a homburg in 1953.

A link to the full article:[4]

Notable Wearers

Notability should establish a permanent association to wearing a top hat, i.e. more than the occasional fashion statement. The notable wearer should have their own working Wikepedia entry, with a specific written or characteristic visual reference on the page to back up their inclusion here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TBliss (talk • contribs) 10:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This list was previously in the article but was compeltely unsourced and unverified. Thought I would put it here in case anyone wants to take the time to find sources.

==Notable wearers==

• Kenny Alphin "Big Kenny" of Big & Rich
• Hans Christian Andersen, Danish author and poet famous for his fairy tales.
• Fred Astaire, American film star.
• Baron Samedi, an aspect of the Baron loa in voodoo.
• Isambard Kingdom Brunel, a 19th Century British engineer.
• Marc Bolan, lead singer of the band T. Rex
• Boy George, lead singer of Culture Club in the 80's
• John Bull, a national personification of England and sometimes Britain.
• Coffin Joe, Brazilian horror film character.
• Alice Cooper during his Welcome to My Nightmare phase
• Marlene Dietrich, film star, in the movies Blue Angel and Morocco.
• Dr. Demento, Los Angeles radio personality.
• Duke Ellington, influential American Jazz musician.
• Raymond Griffith, silent film comedian.
• Professor Hinkle, magician in the TV special Frosty the Snowman, whose discarded top hat ends up bringing Frosty to life.
• Noddy Holder, lead singer of Slade.

• Abraham Lincoln, sixteenth president of the United States.
• The Mad Hatter, a fictional character that appears in Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
• Harpo Marx, one of the Marx Brothers.
• Stevie Nicks, iconic singer/songwriter, both a solo artist and a member of Fleetwood Mac
• Papa Lazarou, demonic circus owner from BBC comedy series The League of Gentlemen.
• The Penguin, one of Batman's enemies.
• Rich Uncle Pennybags, the mascot for the game monopoly.
• John D. Rockefeller, Standard Oil magnate
• Jerry Sadowitz, provocative comedian and magician.
• Screaming Lord Sutch, founder of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party, a spoof UK political party.
• Ebenezer Scrooge, character in A Christmas Carol, is commonly portrayed on stage and film with a top hat in the early and final scenes.
• Scrooge McDuck, wealthy Disney character.
• Saul Hudson, lead guitarist in Guns N' Roses and Velvet Revolver often wears a genuine antique hat modified with a home-made concho belt on it. (I changed this because "slash" isn't a name. This would be like listing "Billy Bob" as a hillbilly who wears the hat. Whenever Saul Hudson legally changes his name to "slash" then it should be listed here as such.)
• Tuxedo Mask, fictional superhero from Sailor Moon
• Oddjob, henchman to the villain Auric Goldfinger in the James Bond film, Goldfinger.
• Uncle Sam, a national personification of the United States.
• Brendon Urie, lead singer of the band Panic! at the Disco
• Ville Valo, frontman of the band HIM
• Willy Wonka, fictional chocolate factory owner created by Roald Dahl.
• Jin Wicked, writer and character in the webcomic Crap I Drew On My Lunch Break.
• Sir Topham Hatt (The Fat Controller) from The Railway Series and Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends.
• Eustace Tilley, the mascot for the New Yorker Magazine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.152.245 (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
• The Cat in the Hat, famous fictional character of Dr. Suess's famous book of the same name. His red and white striped stovepipe hat has become synominous with Dr. Suess's work.

--Veesicle (Talk) 23:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Was wondering if any body had any information

I recently purchased a top hat from an antiqe store, it came in the box and the hat was in perfect condition apparently never worn, and also only 1 of 12 made. This specific hat was made for James Thelwell & co. Melbourne. It was made by Tress & co. London. It also has written on the box ' prize medals Awarded to Tress & co. London Cold medals, Paris 1878 Sydney & calcutta ' I was wondering if any one could give me any aditional information on the company who made the hat and also who bought the Hat and in what year it was made. I appreciate anybodys input into my enquiry and hopefully can find the information i am seeking. MS —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.176.228.61 (talk) 09:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

Note to this and any future visitors who are curious about the values of their hats, or seek any other information about it: Wikipedia is NOT a forum. It is an encyclopedia. Would you write to the publishers of the Encyclopedia Britannica and ask them how much your hat is worth? I would hope not. Please do not post such questions here. Thank you. Bricology (talk) 08:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

apple bought tophat, where is the wiki article on this tophat?

see subject. needs disambig. Tkjazzer (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It was a joke. Apple did very well financially, and some reporter joked that they bought a top hat and a monocle. Somebody misunderstood these as the names of two companies.--Srleffler (talk) 06:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

September 10th has seen a series of Vandalistic edits, have attempted to undo them but have neither the time nor the patience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.110.152 (talk) 22:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Description and values

The entry reads "...the second hand top hat market is very lively, with antique models in wearable condition being sold for more than £5000 ($10'000)." First, the claim is un-sourced. Second, the dollar amount is written incorrectly, and the Pound hasn't been worth $2 for a very long time. Third, as a long-time dealer in high-end vintage clothing, I don't believe that this valuation is even remotely true. Even a cursory look through eBay's past auctions shows that most "wearable" antique top hats sell for between $50 and $200; it is just about unheard of for an antique top hat in even the finest condition and with its original case, to sell for more than $500 in a high-end retail vintage clothing store. The only way that a hat would sell for considerably more than that would be if its former owner was famous. I'm going to replace the claim with one that is easily verifiable. Bricology (talk) 09:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

beaver hats

"During the 19th century the top hat developed from a fashion into a symbol of urban respectability, and this was assured when Prince Albert started wearing them in 1850; the rise in popularity of the top hat led to a decline in beaver hats..." "top hat" and "beaver hat" are not mutually exclusive. What type of top hat lead to the decline of the beaver top hat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.186.198.29 (talk) 19:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Whoever wrote this clearly loves Matt Smith (Doctor Who) a little too much

'Not to be confused with a Fez, Fez' are cool' - A very important point, but are they often confused? Perhaps a seperate article on the similarities and differences of the two headresses would be more suitable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.200.92 (talk) 11:35, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Large cloth top hats?

Does wikipedia have any information about those cartoonish cloth top hats? They're intentionally oversized, and usually of caricature dimensions. The most common kind is like a real-life version worn by the Cat in the Hat, but others are wider and don't have stripes. They're popular around holidays and as souvenirs and a quick search isn't showing a mention of them on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.254.80.49 (talk) 02:14, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Crime and Punishment

I think the section on Crime and Punishment misinterprets the source. The particular passage in the novel is here. Raskolnikov's concern seems not to be that a top hat would be out of place on the street in 1860's Russia, but that his particular hat- a once-fine top hat that has been thoroughly worn out- will attract attention since he is dressed in a fairly ragged fashion, more appropriate to someone wearing a flat cap or a furazhka (peaked cap worn by working-class people). In either case, the cited source doesn't establish that the top hat was out of fashion in Russia in the 1860's; it merely observes that one translator chose to indicate in a footnote that Zimmerman's was a hat maker in Saint Petersburg. --69.181.117.168 (talk) 12:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

John Hetherington

Someone keeps insisting on adding the Hetherington story, which is unwarranted, frankly a bit silly and has no place in this article. I will seek semi-protection for this article if it occurs again, because the Wikipedia article about him on its talk page discusses the "pseudo-history" of the story anyway. Making attempts to name the inventor of the top hat is a fruitless endeavour. I have seen engravings of gentlemen wearing short top hats that date to the 1400s! Djathinkimacowboy 06:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Stricken above comment, for which I apologise. I have re-inserted a reference to Hetherington because I see why it belongs. It simply doesn't want belabouring. Djathinkimacowboy 06:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Top hat in 1747 engraving?

Removed sentence:

One of the earliest references to the top hat is in a 1747 etching (part of the series Industry and Idleness) by William Hogarth, depicting the Lord Mayor of London in a carriage wearing a top hat.

Just in case anyone is curious as to why I removed this sentence, I went and checked the engraving out here and it's definitely not a top-hat, but a Lord Mayor's Cap. See illustration from Parker's Heraldry. Mabalu (talk) 13:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming - chapeu-claque

Hi, as I've seen the French "Chapeu-claque" used in songs and whatnot for a collapsible top hat, I was expecting to find it here as an alternate name. Someone want to add that? -- CarlJohanSveningsson (talk) 17:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Dollman and collapsible hat patents

So I did some research of my own after a claim cited solely to a Facebook status update was posted by someone whose user name had the same name as the business running the Facebook page. As we know from the infamous John Hetherington story, there is a precedent for highly dubious stories connected to this particular form of headgear. Setting aside whether or not the unidentified person claiming themselves as an "established expert" is or isn't, anyone can post any old crap on Facebook or self-published blogs and then claim that this makes them an expert. We have no way of knowing whether they are or aren't At the very best such a claim is original research. Here are my findings:

• There WAS a pre-existing claim in the article that the collapsible tophat was invented in 1812 before Antoine Gibus perfected the design. I did find hits for the phrase "an elastic round hat" - [5], [6], and [7] - which indicates the patent expired in 1825. At no point does anyone specify that this elastic round hat, which may be "made out of beaver, silk or other materials," is definitely something we would consider a top-hat. I agree it sounds like one, but the only other source I can find is in a book by Edward de Bono. de Bono states:

"Elastic made from rubber was an invention of the 19th century, although the word was current earlier; thus an advertisement of 1812 for 'an elastic round hat' turns out to consist of a patented steel spring inside the crown which collapsed the fabric for carrying under the arm."

• Although this does appear to describe what we would later call a gibus, de Bono certainly doesn't come out and call it a top-hat. He's cautious - with very good reason, because the patent doesn't even specify whether it's a man's or a woman's hat. Another writer does draw a link between this "elastic round hat" and the top hat.
• At no point do any of the patent descriptions specify that this is a male or female hat. At the time women wore very high crowned hats too, so it could easily be an unisex design. My personal feeling is that the ribbons in the extended description (quoted in the article) sound like a female detail, but that is my own thoughts. All we can really do is cite the existence of a 1812 patent for a folding hat that at least one published author assumed describes an early version of the collapsible top-hat. Many things were patented that never went into production, so the existence of a 1812 patent does not necessarily mean Dollman hats were put into production. Mabalu (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Gat?

The Gat looks like a very far cousin, IMO. May it be added in the See Also section? (Andrea2016228 (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC))

 Done BMK (talk) 17:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

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"Stovetop"

The article refers to a "stovetop" hat. I cannot find a reference to a "stovetop" hat elsewhere. It might be an unfortunate blend of "stovepipe" and "top hat." Thank you. 8.19.2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.18.74 (talk) 20:11, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Adolf Hitler in white tie.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:21, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

"Chimneybot hat" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Chimneybot hat has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 21 § Chimneybot hat until a consensus is reached. cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 19:52, 21 November 2024 (UTC)