Talk:Topper Headon

Headon's Drum kit

A user posed this question on the Help mailing list

I' am making a toy drum set and need info on what drum set he used.So I can make the best version I can.Any info would be appreciated.

I posted a reply based on a post in a drumming forum that he used a Pearl Export kit. I would be grateful if anyone had more information. If you can assist me, please drop me a line on my talk page. Capitalistroadster 09:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Solo album and imprisonment

The passage about Strummer's death has no relationship to this section heading. Removing it.

Suggesting also that a separate heading called 'Personal Life' or 'Recent News' be added here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoeyJoeJoe70 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Jazz drummer

Topper Headon is in the "Jazz drummers" and "Jazz fusion musicians" categories, as well as on the List of jazz drummers. The article mentions that he listened to jazz in his youth and his admiration of Billy Cobham, and that in 2008 he recorded a song that evokes these influences. I'm not sure this is sufficient to label him a "jazz drummer." Perhaps there are other jazz recordings about which I am unaware, but otherwise, I think it's hard to justify such categorization. (I wouldn't put King Sunny Adé in the "Country and western musicians" category, either.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:16, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

He started his musical career playing jazz drums as you can read, for example, in Topper biography page at The Clash Official web site: "Stints with various jazz, soul, funk and rock outfits led him to an audition in late 1975 for the now legendary London SS". In Westway to the World, Joe (Strummer) said that "Topper could play Jazz, Funk, Reggae and other styles, in addition to traditional Rock drumming", and, interviewed by Kurt Loder for MTV, he said: "Topper could handle anything and his jazz, his jazz licks were right in." In the Boston Globe's article, CLASH: ON A ROCKING NORTH AMERICAN CAMPAIGN..., published on June 1, 1982, Steve Morse wrote: "He (Terry Chimes) played with a heavier rock bass beat than the more jazz-influenced Headon and was tireless." link There are many albums and songs which clearly demonstrate his Jazz style drumming. For example: "Walk Evil Talk", "Time Is Tight", "Jimmy Jazz" or "Look Here" recorded by Topper with The Clash, his 1986 solo album Waking Up, or his contribution to the 1994 album Holy Soul Jelly Roll: Poems & Songs by Allen Ginsberg. After being fired from the band he formed a jazz band. The Drum Channel web site lists Jazz, Soul, R&B, Rock, Punk, Reggae on the Topper's basic background info, and, once again, Jazz is reported first. Many magazines and web sites report him as a Jazz drummer. Topper, interviewed by Sean Egan for The Billboard Q&A: The Clash's Topper Headon (alternate link) said, "We kept the punk ideals but we were playing jazz and soul and funk. In the Best Rock Drummers - Top Ten Lists you can read: "Whether it was hard driving punk rock, or reggae, jazz (or whatever else), he could do it all." Anyway, he is finishing a new album, which is scheduled to be released soon. Will it be Jazz again??? –pjoef (talk • contribs) 11:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not denying what his influences are. I'll put it another way: of the recordings Topper Headon has played on, how many would one find in the "Jazz" section of a record store? Would it be accurate to change the lede to "Topper Headon is a jazz drummer, best known for his membership in the punk rock band, The Clash"? I think the answer to the first question would have to be "greater than zero", and the latter would have to be "yes", for this article to fall within the scope of these categories (or WP:JAZZ). I don't think this is the case: as a musician, he has not based his career around being a jazz drummer. "After being fired from the band he formed a jazz band." What's the name of the band? Would you say Headon's work with that band represents his most prominent work as a musician (and outweighs his efforts with, say, The Clash)? "Many magazines and web sites report him as a Jazz drummer." What magazines (e.g. Down Beat)? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, what I had to say is said. IMHO, he was and still is a jazz drummer even if he played in a punk rock band that "experimented" many types of music. Why Herbie Hancock is in the jazz-funk pianists category? He did just few jazz-funk tunes on his Man-Child, Secrets, and Future Shock albums! –pjoef (talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what it has to do with Topper Headon, but you could take Hancock out if you think the categorization's incorrect, though I'd think "jazz funk" also applies to Fat Albert Rotunda, Headhunters, Thrust etc. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh no! Herbie deserves to be listed on that category and, for the same reason, (IMHO) Topper must be included in Category:Jazz drummers. –pjoef (talk • contribs) 12:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It might not be entirely irrelevant to point out that he still plays drums from time to time at Dover's jazz pub, the Louis Armstrong. And Introducing... A Leg (talk) 15:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It's relevant, though I'm not sure it's notable. Similarly, Woody Allen has had a weekly gig playing traditional jazz for many years. On the other hand, he has also made jazz recordings, and played at jazz festivals, with a jazz group. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Addition to discussion on 'cross-over' drummers

So do you have the same problems with Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford and Ginger Baker for example?

When a drummer uses Jazz influences that doesn't mean thay will be in the jazz section but the style employed may be in a loose and free form or Jazz style. For instance Bernard "Pretty" Purdie uses a heap of influences from jazz through Blues to Funk and his roots are as a jazz drummer.

My opinion is that a drummer's style is defined by the music he drums with. I also suggest that Headon is a cross-over drummer because of his strong influences from Jazz, Soul/R&B and Rock.--MP4BT (talk) 20:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

At least three, and I'm fairly certain all four, of the drummers you mentioned have been written up in Down Beat, to use one criterion. I'll refer you to my unanswered questions in the previous section. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from but publication in a jazz oriented magazing does not mean a drummer is solely a jazz drummer. For example Bill Bruford is best known for his work with The Rock bands Yes, King Crimson and Genesis. He is also known for his work with the Jazz orientated band Earthworks, surely a fusion and cross-over drummer?

Billy Cobham is a much known for his fusion drumming with Spectrum and work with rock bands such as Bobby and The Midnights, The Grateful Dead also the Bill Bickford and Wolfgang Schmidt collaboration. Surely he is a fusion and cross-over drummer?

Purdie is most famous as Aretha Franklin's musical director and drummer and is a recognised exponent of soul and funk drumming.

You will find these guys on albums in several different sections of a a cd/record store, including Jazz!

Headon is a highly regarded Punk drummer with jazz and soul influences and was known for his inventive variations using these influences. So isn't he is a cross-over drummer even if less obvious than other names.--Flyingstrat (talk) 01:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I never said that Cobham, Bruford, Baker and Purdie are solely jazz drummers. Rather, their work in the jazz field is significant enough that they could go in the "Jazz drummers" category with little or no debate (along with the categories for whatever other styles are applicable). I think there could be so many rock drummers with jazz and soul influences, that categorizing them all as "jazz drummers" would make the category meaningless and non-useful. You wrote, "You will find these guys on albums in several different sections of a a cd/record store, including Jazz!" OK, fine, I absolutely agree. Can you say the same about Topper Headon, though? (I've asked this before, see previous section.) Exactly how many of these recordings would you say are jazz recordings (i.e. one could find them in the jazz section)? I'm sure you'd agree that there has to be some kind of threshold, hence my earlier points about appearing in Down Beat, or finding their CDs in the jazz section, etc. Otherwise we'd find, say, Alan Greenspan in Category:Jazz saxophonists (yes, he most certainly was one, but was he a notable one?). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Independent interview

A new interview was just published in the UK. Mothing earthshaterringly remarkable, but perhaps useful for the occasional ref. Wwwhatsup (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)