Talk:Torpedo boat

Motor torpedo boat

The articles "torpedo boat" and "motor torpedo boat" (MTB) need sorting out.

Two options:

1. The MTB becomes Royal Navy specific like E-boat and PT boat, any additional information not about RN MTBs, which is in the MTB page and not in the other pages, is moved to the correct page.
2. Or the information in this article is moved into MTB and this page becomes a redirect.

In either case some of the links to the pages will need moving --Philip Baird Shearer 12:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I do not agree with option 1, because the term MTB (for this type of vessel) is used in other navies as well. Specificly the Royal Norwegian Navy. Until the invention of ship to surface missiles the term ment motor torpedo boat, but now it means missile torpedo boat(in Norway at least).Inge 11:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Disagree with both options. It needs, IMO, to be generic and encompass the MTB/ MAS/ e-boat type as well as the larger, steam powered ones such as the German Raubtier and Elbling classes - see German torpedoboats of World War II. An "MTB" is different to a "torpedoboat", perhaps not in origin and purpose, but certainly in concept (smaller, faster, differently powered), IMO. I would say that MTB = MAS = E-boat and "torpedoboats" tended to be more like small destroyers. Folks at 137 (talk) 18:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"Torpedo boats", which came first, are steam powered. "Motor Torpedo Boats", which came later, are powered by internal combustion engines - 'motors'. The advent of the powerful and reliable petrol or diesel engine, often a converted petrol aero engine, allowed for much smaller, lighter, and faster craft than the preceding steam-powered torpedo boat.

So a "torpedo boat" and a "Motor Torpedo Boat" are completely different types of vessel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 09:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Civil War

The statement "It is commonly acknowledged today that the very first torpedo boat was the Royal Norwegian Navy's HNoMS Rap—the name meaning 'fast'—ordered from Cheswick, England in 1873." is also wrong, unless you are referring to boats that can launch self-propelled torpedoes. Both the Union and Confederate Navies employed torpedo boats in the Civil War, such as the CSS David. I feel some effort needs to be made to acknowledge the history of torpedo boats before the era of self-propelled torpedoes.Thatcher131 20:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Even if it means 'self-propelled torpedos' it's stil lwrong. Britain had such vessels in 1877 and France in 1878. Rap did not launch Whitehead torpedos until 1879. The Land 21:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you are over analysing. You see a torpedo boat as any boat firing a torpedo, but true torpedo boats have some characteristics making them just that. It stated that the Rap was the first "torpedoboat", not the first boat to be used as a platform for torpedoes. It would be quite foolish if the RNoN had bought an expensive weapon system which had never even been used before. It is the first torpedo boat because it was the first to have the caracteristics of subsequent torpedo boat design. Earlier platforms were either regular boats fitted with torpedoes or they were a side track in the design evolution, such as the not fully submercible submarine :) David. Later torpedo boats were just improvements on the same consept. Inge 09:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The article on Rap suggests she was designed as a spar torpedo vessel, and was converted in 1879 to fire Whitehead torpedos. The first vessel designed and built to fire Whitehead torpedos was HMS Lightning of 1877. Rap may or may not have been the first purpose-built spar torpedo boat, but she wasn't built to 'fire' torpedos: a spar torpedo is basically a high-explosive ram. The Land 11:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the language I was complaining about no longer exists, since I added the American Civil War section back in February. As far as the exact wording goes, we can talk about the Rap and the Lightning; just be specific about the role of each one. I expect they're both worth mentioning as significant early torpedo boats. Of course we have no sources here so any references that would tend to support either statement would be useful :) Thatcher131 11:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would be difficult to find a source solving this issue once and for all, but it's worth hoping :). The Land is still thinking of the torpedo, and I do realise the torpedo is the most important subject of a torpedo boat, but I was thinking more along the lines of the boat itself. It was given the tactical capabilities still regarded as top priority for torpedo boats. This shows itself primariliy in size, shape, speed and so on. It was in my (biased):) opinion the first true torpedo boat. Yes the spar torpedo was a crude device, it could have a range of 40 feet against the max range of 1000 yards the whitehead supposedly had in 1870, but I suspect the reliability was much greater. But in the end I think mentioning both the David, the Lightning and the Rap would be the best way to go. Inge 11:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree we should mention them all. The source I'm working from is Preston, 'Destroyers', now referenced at the bottom of the page: it pretty much starts out with the Lightning. (No mention of the RAp, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to). The Land 12:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I just revisited this page about the history of the torpedo boat in the RNoN, unfortunately in Norwegian. It says that Rap was very early fitted with towed torpedoes and that the RNoN bought 25 self propelled torpedoes in 1875. It also states that she was fitted with launch racks in 1879. Not very conclusive, but indicative. Inge 12:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ffolkes boats?

I've read some specialsts (Peter Dickson, Night Action?) say MTBs would be very useful defending against attacks on oil rigs. Anybody know enough to include something on it? Trekphiler 23:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Late 19th century through the Russo-Japanese War 1904-1905

"It was the first massive and practical testing of man's new steel battleships, cruisers, his fledgling destroyers (DDs) and submarines, and the torpedo boat (TB)."

Sixth paragraph, second sentence has issues with tone. Also, submarines did not see action during the Russo-Japanese war, arriving too late to participate.

"Already gunned into a wreck, Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō, the IJN commander, had ordered his torpedo boats to finish off the enemy flagship as he prepared to pursue the remnants of the Russian battle fleet."

Seventh paragraph, last sentence also has issues with tone and relevance. I suggest deleting it entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.50.187 (talk) 08:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Statement on today

"Although torpedo boats have disappeared from the majority of the world's navies, they remained in use until relatively recently in a few specialised areas, most notably in the Baltic. The close confines of the Baltic and ground clutter effectively negated the range benefits of early ASMs. Operating close to shore in conjunction with land based air cover and radars, and in the case of the Norwegian navy hidden bases cut into fjord sides, torpedo boats remained a cheap and viable deterrent to amphibious attack. Indeed, this is still the operational model followed by the Chinese Navy with its Type 025-class torpedo boat for the protection of its coastal and estuarial waters." probably also for the chinese navy we need use "until relatively recently" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.61.28.208 (talk) 09:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

agree, and the type 025 is a MTB, motor torpedo boat, so a different boat type — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.189.148 (talk) 14:33, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

statement on late 800 TB

"In the late 19th century, many navies started to build torpedo boats 30 to 50 metres (98 to 164 ft) in length, armed with up to three torpedo launchers and small guns. They were powered by steam engines and had a maximum speed of 20 to 30 knots"

until the mid 20s* there were only 2 TBs that were 30 knotters the USS Dahlgren and the USS Craven both commissioned in the 1900

• and the mid 20s ship Type 1923&1924 actually were light armed destroyer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.189.148 (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Contradiction

"The first ships to bear the formal designation "torpedo boat destroyer" (TBD) were the Daring class of two ships and Havock class of two ships of the Royal Navy, ordered from Yarrows...

HMS Daring and HMS Decoy were both built by Thornycroft."

So, which is it, Yarrows or Thornycroft? I believe the proper statement is...

"The first ships to bear the formal designation "torpedo boat destroyer" (TBD) were for the Royal Navy, the Daring class of two ships from Thornycroft and Havock class of two ships ordered from Yarrows..."

Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)