Talk:Torture in Venezuela

Category of Victims of Torture

WMrapids In your edit at Carlos Andrés Pérez torture is mentioned. I noticed that the category of Venezuelan torture victims doesn't appear to mention any victims prior to 2002, unlike this article that has something resembling balance. Is there a way to correct the category so that it does not have so much WP:RECENTISM? --David Tornheim (talk) 20:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Take a look again at the category articles; there are plenty of torture victims from the dictatorships of Juan Vicente Gómez and Marcos Pérez Jiménez. You're free to translate items from the category in Spanish es:Categoría:Torturados de Venezuela, as there are plenty more. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: Thanks for the mention. There are some issues of recentism on many Venezuelan topics (which is why I became involved). This is apparent with Shortages in Venezuela when scarcity had occurred in the past as well, though maybe not as to the same extent as in the 2010s. WMrapids (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Torture?

@NoonIcarus: Can you explain why you are saying that some members of the Venezuelan opposition were victims of torture despite nothing in their articles saying such? Here are a few examples; for Lorent Saleh, you said that they were a victim of torture though no sources document this[1][2] and you said that Karen Palacios was a victim of torture while providing no sources.[3] I can see why David Tornheim shared some concerns about this particular category.

While I do not want to minimize any potential instance of torture, it is also important to recognize that the situation of Venezuelan politics is so polarized that sources must be thoroughly vetted and attributed. For Wilmer Azuaje, I looked for more sources about his torture and tried to help in that case. For the cases mentioned above, which you had placed, I had no such luck. WMrapids (talk) 02:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

WMrapids I think this comment would be better in the torture article talk page and also the individual articles that lack the WP:RS. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

[original comments were here] --David Tornheim (talk) 01:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Lorent Saleh was subjected to white torture and said information was already present in the article when you left the message. I provided several reliable sources that describe Lorent being tortured in an editorial voice in the article's talk page (Talk:Lorent Saleh#Torture), the most detailed being his interview with Cayetana Álvarez de Toledo.

Some of the categories were placed as a result of translations or category population, but they're far from being poorly sourced. In the case of Karen Palacios, I included further information from none other than the UN Fact Finding Mission on Venezuela, and the video that you referred to at Wilmer Azuaje was widely published when it was first made public.

Just as a quick note: Karen Palacios is not a "member of the Venezuelan opposition". She doesn't belong to any opposition party or organization, she was just a musician that happened to criticize the government. Furthermore, as the creator of the category, I have categorized plenty of people tortured in the 20th century, as mentioned above ([4][5][6][7][8]). It's far from focusing only about the "Venezuelan opposition", and I hope that you're not implying the contrary. --NoonIcarus (talk) 07:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Tags...

@NoonIcarus: Can you please explain your non sequitur tags? You have placed these tags before in another article and they were appropriately removed. WMrapids (talk) 20:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@WMrapids: I'm not sure you can say they were "appropriately" removed if the issue remains. How can you assert that if you're not sure reason why they were placed?

Non sequitur tags are used for WP:SYNTH issues, or content that is not related to the topic in question. I placed them after you reinserted the content twice after it was disputed:[9][10] They describe Caracas Metropolitan Police and DISIP "tools to persecute dissenters", and talk about the enforced disappearances and extrajudicial killings during El Caracazo.

The SEBIN has also been described as a secret police used to persecute opposition, but that is not included in the article. Neither is the mention of enforced disappearances and extrajudicial killings during the 2014 or 2017 protests, even if plenty of those happened. That is because this article is about torture, and there are already other pages that cover these topics. That is the rationale for the tags. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I also had the time to review the sources more closely. Neither Amnesty International nor the IACHR describe enforced disappearances as a systematic pattern or cite perpetrators (such as the Metropolitan Police or the DISIP). --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)