Talk:Totenkopf

"Left v. Right"

The article says that "The SS Totenkopf on the other hand was always facing left in half-profile", but the image at the top of the page has the Totenkopf facing right. Lincoln Mandos (talk) 19:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

"Insignia"

Is "insignia" the correct singular form? — B.Bryant 03:14, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is. :bloodofox: 11:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Associations

Article needs a sentence or two about how it came to be associated with the SS and naziism. — B.Bryant 03:14, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Recent appearance in Wal-Mart and subsequent removal

A version used by the SS supposedly appeared in a wallmart store, and was later removed. See photograps and details in the following link: http://www.bentcorner.com/2006/11/09/wal-mart-is-selling-shirts-with-a-nazi-ss-skull-on-it/ --Bill

More on the story and photographs: here, here and here FK0071a 19:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Totenkopf and the SS

I as a native German have never assiciated the Totenkopf symbol with Nazi German or the SS. Instead in my mind it is clearly a symbol for pirates (Hoisting the Totenkopf-flag to their mast, etc...). I am sure most other Germans would agree with me. While this does not tell much about the International perception of the symbol I still think that the text of the article is biased to a very specific use of the word Totenkopf. One solution would be to move the Totenkopf article to Totenkopf (military insignia) so that the specific nature of this article becomes clearer. --Jpkoester1 16:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Then you and your german friends are wrong, pirates did never use the "Totenkopf" symbol on their flag, they used many versions of the Jolly Roger, but never one as a Totenkopf symbol (full skull incl lower jaw slightly from the side, on top of 2 crossed bones). While both symbols probably come from same source (far back in time) it is not the same path they had taken and not even the same name used. And in this context you might search for jolly roger if you want to find the pirate flag. Totenkopf as a symbol are indeed made infamous from the SS, but then again, when you think of a Swastika, the first thing you think of isnt shinto i guess. --Sneaking Viper 23:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

or maybe not? if u look at pirate flags in wikipedia u will come across many using the deaths head.--85.180.50.69 05:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

As "Jolly Roger" is an English word, I strongly object to the idea that sailors speaking the German tongue ever would have used the word Jolly Roger upon a Pirate sighting (back then, a couple of centuries ago). In fact, when the infamous pirate Klaus Störtebecker would fly his banner, they would exclaim in horror that their opponent had hoisted "die Totenkopfflagge". And the word is still used in contemporary German, see http://www.focus.de/wissen/bildung/tid-5814/piraten_aid_57158.html . Also the 'poisonous' sign on bottles with such content are said to show the Totenkopf. And this has nothing to do with WWII. Only in combination with -Verbände, -Einheiten (units) or -SS the connection is immediately obvious and recognized. No matter where the bones are positioned. BTW, some Jolly Roger flags of one or the other famed infamous pirate didn't have neither skull nor bone(s), but e.g. an arm swinging a scimitar. So I think, him and his German friends are not wrong, unless you are the only smart person in the world and know better than millions of German native speakers.

The Totenkopf was clearly used before the Nazis. If it has a jaw or not who cares? If somebody personally associates it with the Nazis is something different. If you are into the Napoleonic Wars you will not necessarily do that.--85.180.41.233 (talk) 02:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes the Totenkopf symbol is from very old times, it has been used by kings, nobles, Royal guards and other military units, i just stated that it was not a pirate flag, even though pirates never used a specific skull flag, the Totenkopf symbol is still a old royal symbol and not a pirate one..Sneaking Viper (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet another native German to contradict you here. The Nazi connection looms somewhat larger in non-native heads, because you get to hear or read the word only as part of a name, e.g. "Totenkopfdivision". Other uses will naturally be translated. But in reality the meaning of the word is not as narrow and specialised as you would have it. The Jolly Roger depicts a Totenkopf. So do diverse military insignia. It's a generic term, not a brand name. And that's that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.140.172 (talk) 15:58, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

You’re a bit confused here. “Totenkopf” simply means skull. It doesn’t refer to a specific flag design. --Tom S. Fox (talk) 08:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

17th Lancers

Added detail to the reference to 17th Lancers motto. Clarifies that the use is a reference to a specific action the Lancers took part in, and their conduct on that occasion.

Skateboard

I cannot find the article now with images BUT I saw in a British newspaper that a skateboard company sells hooded tops with the Totenkopf skull of this design 1 and 2. I also saw this top worn by skateboarding members of Dirty Sanchez (TV series) in series 1. Anyone got any more information on this? FK0071a 19:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I have seen skatewear, including woolen caps, that displayed the totenkopf in an American department store. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what the company was but I found it rather odd. :bloodofox: 11:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

FC St Pauli

FC St Pauli use the Totenkopf as an unofficial symbol, though the club is renowned for it's left-wing support. If there is any clear information on the reclamation of the Totenkopf from the far right that would be well worth including. Dancarney (talk) 10:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don´t think so as you pointed out correctly, at least in Germany, deathheads are also used by Punks.--85.180.41.233 (talk) 02:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

How does this word sound? A pronunciation guide would be nice. —by Fromaage (talk • contribs) 06:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Try: Toe-ten-kop-ff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 19:12, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I tried to add a phonetic note on how to pronounce it. Feel free to correct if I messed it up. --Kjoenth (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Use by Greek rebels

Not knowing how to edit the article, could someone, please, add that the death's head was also used by the Greek rebels initiating the Greek Revolution back at the beginning of the 19th century? Here's a reference taken from Ch. W. Heckethorn's "The Secret Societies of All Ages & Countries - Vol 2", p.149 (http://books.google.gr/books?id=RqzKYJPOdScC&pg=PA149):

"About this time, also, according to the pattern of the Thebans, five hundred youths, belonging to the noblest and richest families, formed themselves into a Sacred Battalion. They were clothed in black, and displayed on their breasts a cross with the words, "In this sign you shall conquer." Their hats were decorated with a skull and crossbones." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.147.55 (talk) 00:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Literal meaning

I used the English wiki search and stranded here so I feel it's my duty to help the attempts made by a lonely IP but ignored by some others most likely because of a language barrier. I am German and have some linguistic knowledge even though my English sometimes is a little rusty.

Totenschädel literally means "Skull of a dead man". Even if the translation is "Death's skull" (as pointed out in the text - historical by nature) the literal meaning is not !

A link was provided some time ago as I saw and it links to the Duden. This link should stay for the time being since it clears up the problem to an person who is able to read German properly.

See:

• Death (as in Death_(personification) or the noun of the state of being) in German is Tod
• And dead (as in the adjective) in German is tot
• A dead (as in a person being in the state) in German would be Toter.

Toten is another form of Toter. So Tot and dead being the adjectives of Tod and death , who are also personifications. So you see that English and German is very similar here.

Now if you read careful you will conclude that "Toten|schädel" can not possibly come from death. Yes the historically grown but wrong translation to English is "Death's head" however (from the text:) "is the German word for "skull" (literally, [...]) and is used to" talks about a literal German meaning wish as described is not the translation normally provided.

And to add: Writing "is the German word for "skull"" is also kind of a wrong suggestion because the "skull" of a living person would not be called a "Totenschädel" (even if the English translation says that it's just not proper).

Thanks for your time ! Moooitic (talk) 04:17, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Spanish Army

Regimiento de Caballería Ligera Lusitania nº8: 8th Lusitania Light Cavalry Regiment, a.k.a. Lusitania Dragoons, badge adopted in 1744 after suffering heavy losses at the battle of Madonna dell'Olmo (Savoy, Italy).

"http://elmesondelartillero.blogspot.com/2009/05/siguiendo-con-los-aniversarios-en.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.213.197.52 (talk) 11:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Death's Regiment (Regimiento de la Muerte), 1809-10.

"http://www.miniaturasjm.com/uniformologia/uniformes-espaoles-espaa-1800-a-1812" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.213.197.52 (talk) 12:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The Jaw

The article should point out that from the late 1930s the SS Totenkopf badge had got a jaw to tell it apart from the army Totenkopf, that was jawless. The German army tank and assault artillery men used the jawless Totenkopf as collar badge in WW2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.213.197.52 (talk) 12:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"http://ww2ss.tripod.com/history.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.213.197.52 (talk) 12:24, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

HG...

Hermann Göring...'Hermann Göring' Armoured (or Panzer) 'Parachute' Division (there was on paper a 'Hermann Göring 2' Mechanized Division as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.213.197.52 (talk) 19:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Gula Hussars (Swedish Army, 1760s)

"http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Gula_Hussars" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

On translation

A User has been trying to make a pedantic point by applying modern German grammatical rules to an archaic word preserved from medieval times in the poetic vocabulary. If coined *today* then, yes, "Death's head" would be Todeskopf.; but it wasn't and isn't; any more than the related Dance of Death is Totentanz, not Todestanz.

The fact is, Toternkopf is only ever used when applied to the skull as a symbol, a representation of Death itself, whether the mortality of the ossuary, or Death Himself in shorter form than full skeleton with scythe. Nonetheless, one never finds Totenkopf ever used to mean, generally, "skull." Solicitr (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Solicitr. Kierzek (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This is simply wrong, you're making an error. Find an American professor for German language and ask him - it's exactly the way I wrote - and it's NOT ancient, it hasn't changed in much more than the last 100 years.

Again: what you're are putting into Wikipedia is an error, it's false.

Totentanz does also mean: dance of the dead! NOT dance of death! Dead people CAN be a personification of death, but you don't call an hourglass a deathglass.

Ok my pedantic point is to remove a falsehood and replace it by a CORRECT and TRUE translation. That's what we should pedantically care for.

Now it says in the article:

"The grammatical translation of Totenkopf would be dead head". THIS IS NONSENSE.

The translation of "dead head" would be, Ok I'll make it explicit:

A dead head = ein toter Kopf

the dead head = der tote Kopf

To DO something with a dead head = etwas mit dem toten Kopf tun (only in THIS respect (AND WITH A SPACE, NOT Totenkopf)) is it grammatically corret to say "mit dem toten Kopf", but nobody would say it, not back then, not today, because "dead head" doesn't make sense.

Now it says in the article:

"The more correct literal translation is "head of Death,” THIS IS ALSO NONSENSE.

Of course the word is an old word but it means and also MEANT skull, it meant the head of a skeleton.

"skeleton with a scythe" is called "Sensenmann" and THAT is a personification of death.

Now one could say "let's not be pedantic and put outright nonsense into Wikipedia because we're used to it, let's pedantically stick to an error and call it death's head".

It's also not about an "agreement", just re-read the information I put into the article about the lexical formation of the word, about the semantics, about the relation to the Totenkopfschwärmer, and again, the assumption that this changed and was only "ancient German" is wrong. I read many, many books of German literature, also very old books, and I can assure you.

I really hope that you care about a correct and true Wikipedia. It's a false assumption that the use of the German lanugage has changed the way you wrote.

Sincerely, 79.230.166.113 (talk) 10:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

PS more info: When you look at how the English "Dance of Death" is rendered in French (danse macabre) it would of course be FALSE to equate "macabre" with "Death". There simply are DIFFERENT names for the idea of the "Dance of Death" and the German "Totentanz" means and DID MEAN "Dance of the dead" - the dead arise and they dance (plural). (those dead have Totenköpfe = SKULLS. The only CORRECT translation.

PPS more info: You wrote: "Nonetheless, one never finds Totenkopf ever used to mean, generally, "skull.""

Explanation: the reason you don't find the word Totenkopf is that the German language has different words for the skull - in anthropological or medicine literature the word Schädel is used, which can be the skull of a living or of a dead person - in general talk you don't often speak about the skull of a dead person, i.e. about a Totenkopf - so when somebody actually does use the word Totenkopf it's usually refering to the symbol of danger on chemicals etc. or the pirate flag, and if one sees the Yale skull, one would also say Totenkopf.

""The grammatical translation of Totenkopf would be dead head"" NO. Not "dead head" at all, but "Death's head" (observe the capital D)- the head of Death, the personification, the skeletal chappie in the black robe with the scythe. Totenkopf in German is used in precisely the same sense, as a symbol (or poetic illusion), not for either the head of any old dead man, nor for the bones of the head- as you have said. Similarly in English "Death's head" is never used except in the same cases.

Moreover, "over 100 years" machts nichts; I'm talking MHG or not much later, before Luther's Bible standardized the language. Again, you're trying to apply anachronistic modern grammatical rules to a word that predates them. Perhaps you think we should tell the Bavarian Parliament to change the spelling of the Baierische Landtags-zeitung, it's "wrong"?

And how, pray tell, would you translate Totenkopf literally? According to your rule it means nothing at all!.Solicitr (talk) 21:53, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

""The grammatical translation of Totenkopf would be dead head"" Of course not, that's why I wrote THIS IS NONSENSE. Please read more carefully.

The "skeletal chappie in the black robe with the scythe" is in German called the "Sensenmann". Totenkopf, to repeat myself means SKULL, but of course a skull can be a symbol of death, just like an hourglass e.g. And again you are mistaken when you say "German is used in precisely the same sense, as a symbol (or poetic illusion), not for either the head of any old dead man, nor for the bones of the head" -- both words Schädel AND Totenkopf mean skull; if you speak German and search German texts using google for the word Totenkopf you will find that use; but usually the word Schädel is used in an anthropological context. All your questions should be answered if you carefully read my last post.

"Again, you're trying to apply anachronistic modern grammatical rules to a word that predates them." NO. Look at the example I added (German poet Clemens Brentano) -- NO change in meaning. The grammatical rules which I showed DO APPLY.

Again:

"head of death" or "death's head" is NEITHER the literal translation NOR grammatical/lexical translation NOR the meaning of "Totenkopf".

"Head of death" would be "Kopf des Todes"

"Death's head" would be "Todeskopf" (no such word is in use)

Maybe you understand looking at this example: the German word for "Death squad" is Todesschwadron.

What is important here is the different declension (which is closer to the Latin declension and can thus cause confusion in English translations) -- you can see that once there is an "n" Totenkopf, and here is an "s" Todesschwadron (sidenote: the so-called "Death star" in the science-fiction franchise is in the German synchronization called "Todesstern"). The German grammar is closer to the Latin grammar and can confuse English speakers (--> limits of translation).

"And how, pray tell, would you translate Totenkopf literally? According to your rule it means nothing at all!."

It's not my rule! ;) I'm German, I speak German and (surprise!) I use the rules of the German grammar.  :::: Totenkopf means skull, but if you absolutely insist on a literal translation (which at this time you might understand has limitations), that would be: "head of a dead man".

Sincerely, 79.230.189.25 (talk) 21:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, here is how I see it. There is some difficulties in translating from German to English, that come from the similarities. For example; Kindergarten, is both an English word, and a German word, but it's use in German is equivalent to the English pre-school. Second, I think any attempt to translate the word by breaking it up into parts is flawed. It should be treated as the single term it is. I understand that you understand German, but I understand English. So I will define the proposed translations as they are in English.

Skull-the bone in one's head The head of a dead man- The head with flesh of a dead man. Dead head- a fan of the grateful dead. Death's head- a human skull used as a symbol

I don't really see what the disagreement is about. The only difference in meaning between the term's Death's head and skull are that Death's head is specifically human and a symbol. Skull seems most often used in speech by far, but Death Head, or Death's Head seems to be the convention when naming the hussars — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.44.209 (talk) 00:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

The name and skull symbol refers to Death a.k.a The Grim Reaper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 19:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Craft International logo

I'd like to include the Craft logo image. Would that be fair use? Chris Kyle, on the wikipedia page, wears a hat with the logo, but at a bad angle. It's on his shirt, too. http://www.thecraft.com/craft_skull.html https://www.google.com/search?q=craft+internationallogo&espv=2&biw=1430&bih=746&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Zx_kVK-PPMbloATdi4KYDQ&ved=0CDUQ7Ak GangofOne (talk) 06:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Apropos merging

I suggest to not merge these two articles -– I think the "Totenkopf" shall have its own article especially because so much confusion or rather erroneous ideas are surround it. Sincerely, 87.182.102.151 (talk) 11:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Other "non-german" units

hello, I'm not a good english-writer, but it may be possible to add this other militaries units in the list : Russians hussars of Alexandria, Finnish Kev.Os. 4 "White death", Italians Moschettieri del Duce (before RSI).

The first use (maybe) of this symbol could be by the Company of death (XIIe century)

Thanks Mylhaine C. (fr) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mylhaine C. (talk • contribs) 09:17, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Meaning

In a documentary the commentator said that the symbol meant: "We do not make living prisoners."

What is (and is not) a totenkopf

The wiki defines a totenkopf as :"usually of the human skull with or without the mandible and often includes two crossed long-bones (femurs)," but some edits seem to lean toward only a skull AND crossbones as being a totenkopf. Can we talk about whether a skull by itself is a totenkopf? If it is not, can we change how it is defined, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.220.176.25 (talk) 00:44, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I feel like there needs to be the combination of things the wiki says defines a totenkopf: human skull, with or without the mandible, optional two crossed femur

But there should also be the intended meaning of one of the following: symbol for death, the defiance of death, danger, or the dead, as well as piracy or toxicity

Since the page specifically says it's related to military meanings, that would exclude some of the examples that are on the German totenkopf entry like the use by early Christians. It would also exclude calavera since there is no military aspect.

Depictions of Stede Bonnet's flag and the Finnish Light detachment 4 are examples of human skull without two crossed long-bones

People have pretty strong opinions about whether Punisher-like skulls are-or-not totenkopf, but the are a skull(✓), without a mandible(✓), optional leg bones(though the belt worn by the punisher is visually similar to the single femur used by some pirate flags)(✓). The usage by SEAL teams and derived image used by the company Craft International clearly are used as symbols for death, the defiance of death, danger, and/or a warning to others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kjoenth (talk • contribs) 12:59, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

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... are we?

Very well.

They're coming.

Now we'll see how these Ukrainians deal with a crack Russian division.

Vlad?

Have courage my friend.

Yeah.

Vlad, I've just noticed something.

These communists are all cowards.

Have you looked at our caps recently?

Our caps?

The badges on our caps. Have you looked at them?

What? No. A bit.

They've got skulls on them.

Have you noticed, that our caps have actually got little pictures of skulls on them?

I ... I don't ...

Vlad…

... are we the baddies?

Let's see. We should be able to hold them at this point here. At least for a few hours.

Why skulls, though?

What?

Why skulls?

Well, maybe they are the skulls of our enemies.

Maybe. But is that how it comes across?

It doesn't say next to the skull, you know ...

"Yeah we killed him, but trust us, this guy was horrid."

Well no, but ...

I mean what a skull is making you think of?

Death, cannibals, beheading ... ehm ... pirates.

Pirates are fun!

I didn't say we weren't fun. But fun or not, pirates are still the baddies.

I just can't think of anything good about a skull.

What about pure Aryan skull shape?

Even that is more usually depicted with the skin still on.

Whereas the Allies ...

Oh, you haven't been listening to Allied propaganda.

Of course they're gonna say we are the bad guys.

But they didn't get to design our uniforms.

Their symbols are all, you know, quite nice.

Stars, stripes, lions, tridents?

What's so good about a sickle?

Well, nothing. And obviously, if there's one thing we have learned in the last thousand miles of retreat,

it's that Ukrainian agriculture is in dire need of mechanization.

Tell me about it.

But you've gotta say, it's better than a skull.

I mean, I really can't think of anything worse as a symbol than a skull.

A rat's anus?

Yeah, and if we were fighting an army marching under the banner of a rat's anus,

I'd probably a lot less worry, Vlad.

Okay.

So ... 2806:103E:27:50DC:CC10:87B5:80E1:E4CD (talk) 21:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)