Talk:Totilas

"new" name

Hello, I am sorry that I give no cite for the move of the article. But: You can found the "new name" at the FEI horse detail site, at the site of the new rider, at the site of the new owner etc. Also at 2011 results you can found the "new name", for example at the 2011 German dressage championship (GP Sp., GP Freestyle). I hope you can now understand, why I move the article. --Nordlicht8 (talk) 11:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I think those are reasonable references, I've asked the editor who moved the article back to Moorlands to comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that all the horse's major wins and fame is all under his previous name. While I accept the FEI record as a legitimate show name change (which happens a lot) and will tweak the article accordingly, I also don't know if his breed registry accepted his name change, which will affect the name that appears on the pedigrees of his offspring. Most breed registries I know of refuse to allow a name change once an animal has registered offspring. So I'd like to leave it as is until we see if KWPN also took the name change. Montanabw^(talk) 21:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Breeding: As I know, the horse names in the breeding registry are always without commercial names (as "Moorlands"). The only by-names I know in breeding registry are breeders by-names. In the dressage stallion list of the KWPN you found Totilas without a commercial name (see page 43 (26 of 36)).

By the way: If you look at the 2005 young dressage horse World Championship results, you will found him only called "Totilas" (results (Finals - 5-year olds), article). And I think, he was chosen for breeding at this time, too. Or?

Sport: Yes, of course, the horse's major wins at this moment are under his "old name". But: What moment, will be the moment, the "new name" will had more success? If Totilas will stay healthy the next years, there will be international individual medals, I am sure.

Fame is all under his previous name: I don't know how it is in English speaking media. But in German media, you found also in the last years mostly only the name "Totilas". The by-name "Moorlands" were not called very often here. --Nordlicht8 (talk) 11:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, what's important here is verifiability, not opinion or major wins under previous names etc. If we now can verify that Toto's new name is actually Totilas and no longer Moorland Totilas, then the page should (must) be moved. However, the only other thing to consider is WP:COMMONNAME which says that regardless of a factually accurate name, if someone/something/some horse is known by something more commonly than anything else, that's the name we should use. Thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm basically with Rambling Man as far as common name, but if Moorlands was also temporary, then we may have a good case to move to just Totilas, but maybe with a new section explaining the name change. You make some good points, Nordlicht. Over here in the states, breeder names are very common due to the requirement that each horse have a unique name within its breed registry. And we also don't allow horse names to be changed as a general rule after the horse has entered competition and/or had registered offspring. So, can you locate the point at which "Moorlands" was added? I'll probably get won over if we can pinpoint that he wasn't registered with that name at birth, either... if it was also purely a competition name, then I'll be more convinced. Montanabw^(talk)

Actually, this very article has the following text: "After Gal began working with the horse, his sponsors Cees (also spelled Kees) and Tosca Visser purchased Toto in the name of their investment company, Moorland BV." and this was after he was five years old. So clearly he wasn't called Moorlands Totilas from birth. And clearly he didn't become famous under his "unsponsored" name. So a bit of a quandary really...! Having said that, if the name is a "sponsorship" name and that's no longer the case, we really need to consider removing it as no longer valid, and yes, I agree, perhaps add a brief section (or at least a couple of sentences in the existing article) that cover the naming/un-naming... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't read that to say his name was changed and the example doesn't give us his original name, actually (though you might be right, nonetheless) ...You will note his breeder and his last owner both have partners with the last name Visser, possibly a married couple (?) ...take, fora different example, Animal Kingdom (horse) who was basically sold by the same guy back to himself, but between two separate corporate entities, one for breeding and one for racing. I think the first thing to do is address the 2011 name change in the article, as we all agree it needs to be discussed. Then, as Nordlicht has the best access to the breed registry, perhaps we can track down more on his early years, which would be good to add anyway. Then, we can probably see how he is going to be known by mainstream third party publications (Dressage Today, Chronicle of the Horse, etc.) for the 2012 London games (which should be determined later this year once they start to report on his summer show record) and if the common name is moving consistently toward "Totilas," then we can do the move without a move dispute then...? Montanabw^(talk) 23:35, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

To the name Visser: As you can see in this article (nl) the correct name of the breeders are Jan and Anna Schuil, but for her you can also the name Anna (Schuil-)Visser. So I think Visser is her maiden name. I don't know if Cees Visser is related to her. You can found in the article too, that Cees/Kees and Tosca Visser are the owners of Totilas since 2006 - so I think this was the moment since he was called Moorlands Totilas.

If you want, I have no problem to wait some months before we move the article to the new name. But: I think in the first passage of the article we must first call the "new name", and after it the "old name".

Something other (1): Not (only) Schockemöhle had selected Matthias Alexander Rath to be the new rider of Totilas. 50 % co-owner of Totilas is Ann Kathrin Linsenhoff, she has sport rights (P. Schockemöhle has the breeding rights). So she selected her stepson, Matthias Alexander Rath, who rides also her former top horse Sterntaler-Unicef. I will correct it next.

Something other (2): German horse sport TV-shows are Totilas-crazy at the last months, also at the CHIO Aachen. If someone like to see him, Mistral Hojris, Ravel, Parzival and Co: Next time at Thursday beginning 9:00 am CET, 1:00 am Mountain Time, in the Grand Prix (Totilas at 15:36/3:36 pm CET, 7:36 am MT) live here. Oops, no signature. Nordlicht8 (talk)

As far as I can tell, there's no way on earth, given current evidence, the horse was called Moorlands Totilas at birth, as the sponsorship took place at the age of five for the horse. Now the company has relinquished its "ownership". The horse was called Totilas at birth (as evidenced by reliable sources previously given) and is still called Totilas. I see no reason at all why not to move this to Totilas and add some info in the article saying he was known by a sponsorship title for a while. After all, Moorland Totilas will redirect here, so there's no confusion. And a majority of the sources here already just refer to him as Totilas. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm OK with Nordlicht's edits so far. I am not sure which reliable sources give his birth name, but like I say, in the US, these "sponsored names" are very common at birth (free advertising for the breeder). While practice in Europe could be different, I don't yet view the horse's old name as a sponsorship title, but if it is, I'd like a RS to pin down the year the name became Moorland's Totilas, which I have yet to see. For all we know, his birth name was "fluffy."  :-D Montanabw^(talk) 18:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what is a RS? --Nordlicht8 (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Oops! Wikipedia acronym for "reliable source." See WP:RS. Where I'm coming from is, for example, the US Thoroughbred industry, where each horse has one unique name and it can't be changed (sometimes once when they are little, but after they start racing and producing offspring, no). In contrast, both the USEF and the FEI do allow "competition" names to be changed, but those may not be the horse's registered name in its studbook. For the purposes of pedigrees and breed registration, no name changes are generally allowed. So while I understand that maybe not all breed registries worldwide operate that way, I'm curious what the KWPN does, because if you can change names every time a horse is sold, that has GOT to screw up pedigree tracking horribly, thus my concern here for getting this horse's name history correct, whatever it may be. Montanabw^(talk) 17:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I know it also from German warmblood breeding that each each breeding stallion has one unique breeding name and this name can not be changed (for example: Sport horse "Eurocommerce Berlin" is called in breeding allways with his birth and bredding name, "Caspar" ([1])). How the KWPN-name rules are, I don't know. But, back to Totilas: If you look back, in one of my edits, you will found this article from 2005. If he was called Moorlands Totilas at this time, you would found this name in this article, I think. But here and also in the result list form the same source (Finals - 5-year olds) you have only the name Totilas. So I am sure that Moorlands was no part of his birth name. --Nordlicht8 (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. Useful. Any chance we can date the name change TO Moorland's Totilas? That might work. Montanabw^(talk) 20:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

At the time of the first name change he was to young for a article about the name change, I think. But If you look back to one other of my edits you will found this article (nl). In this article one sentence are: "Sinds 2006 zijn Kees en Tosca Visser van de Moorland Stables eigenaren van Totilas." (= Since 2006 Kees and Tosca Visser from the Moorland Stables are owner of Totilas.) This must be the moment of the first name change, or? --Nordlicht8 (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I wish we had a source (like the FEI or KWPN database) that gave us a "drop dead" date. All we can say to what you have is something like, "between 2006 and 2010, the horse was shown under the name Moorland's Totilas." Montanabw^(talk) 21:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand your wish, but I think there will be no public source. Because of this I have no problem with a sentence like the one you had written. --Nordlicht8 (talk) 11:28, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

If you can find a source for the time when "Moorlands" was added, go for it. As for "public" source, I know that even if we have to cite to a proprietary private database, we could if someone has access. (there's some exception to the general rule on that, somewhere). I think that if they publish a hardcopy version (or een a CD-ROM) we can do like is done for peer-reviewed journal articles usually only available via paid databases and cite to the hardcopy on wiki. Montanabw^(talk) 18:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

No, I have no source. I mean: The owner will have the horse documents, and there you can found the date we looking for (so I think). Also the National Equestrian Federation will have the dates of the horse documents. But also this dates are not public, as I know. --Nordlicht8 (talk) 21:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, how about we try to pin it down by years based on your news articles and take it from there? Montanabw^(talk) 21:55, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I have done. Do you like it in this way? --Nordlicht8 (talk) 16:52, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it works. I did some copyediting. Not sure how to resolve the name change consistency. Montanabw^(talk) 20:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

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