Talk:Town ball

Although rounders, town ball, cricket, and baseball are similar-looking games, there is little or no written evidence that the game of rounders was played in the early U.S.- or that rounders was the same as town ball, or that town ball was the same as the Massachusetts game. For the complexity of this issue, see [1] Buffalohead 13:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I have expanded the page now to reflect the more recent research on the subject.Buffalohead 22:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I am removing Kirsch's suggestion that Phila Town Ball migrated to Cinci, while I look for more verification. I notice that a sentence has been inserted saying David Block has "proven" Chadwick's Rounders assertion to be false. I would not use the word proven here, since in 1905 Spalding proved that baseball did not come from Rounders; in 1939 Henderson proved that baseball did come from rounders; in 2005 Block proved that it did not come from rounders. I think that discussion is better suited to the Origins of Baseball page, since this page is neither about rounders nor about baseball. Can we downgrade "proven" into something less dogmatic? Buffalohead 15:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

How about "hypothesized"? Unless he's got a time machine, it would be hard to "prove" it. Wahkeenah 15:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Below seems like a fair to way to put it, with parentheses:Buffalohead 02:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

(Although widely cited and widely believed, Chadwick's account was discredited in 2005 by researcher David Block.)

Let's suppose the reader has not read that book. What evidence does it cite? Wahkeenah 03:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Very briefly, it cites that there is No Evidence. There don't seem to be any references before 1828 - in England or the US - to the existence of a game called Rounders. It was a relatively new game. I'm OK with saying "Chadwick's account was challenged". The subject is a controversy magnet.

I see. The possibility must be considered that the game existed before the name rounders did. My assumption has always been that it's called "rounders" because you go "around" the bases instead of back-and-forth, as with cricket and "one old cat". The term "base ball" seems to have been a generic term for any number of bat-and-ball games that preceded both rounders and what we know as baseball. I would also expect that Chadwick, being from the 19th century, was in a better position to know some of these things than someone from our generation. That does not preclude him having "filled in the blanks" or made stuff up, but that would be hard to prove also. I think we agree on the wording. Sehr gut. d:) Wahkeenah 09:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As a child Chadwick played a game that was called rounders in Devonshire. That kind of game was called other names in other parts of England. When Chadwick arrived in the US he saw a game being played - "I say, that's like me old Rounders." If he had been from London or whatever, he might have said, "That's like me old Feeder." They were all primitive baseball games, and the one called rounders has no special place in the family tree. He was known as "Father" Chadwick, and his memory went back to the very beginnings of the game. Block is just saying that Chadwick was mistaken on this issue.

Removal of claim

I am removing this section by a previous author, at least temporarily, until I can find some more verification.

The game differed from rounders in that the concept of the "strike" was introduced. In fact, many sets of rules allowed for three strikes, which carried over into baseball.

I am not accepting the 1858 rules of the Massachusetts Game as "Town Ball Rules", as they have been labelled on a source web site. I think the label was added much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buffalohead (talk • contribs) 02:49 28 May 2007 (UTC)

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