Talk:Toxicodendron radicans

Scientific Classification

I cannot claim to be an expert on this subject, but I am fairly sure that the blurb about the taxonomy of this plant is incorrect. Most literature still seems to use Rhus radicans as the scientific name and the reference for using Toxicodendron radicans is actually from the 1970's! Unless there is a better and more current reference, perhaps this should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ugyesh1 (talk • contribs) 19:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 5 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 19:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

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Toxicodendron radicans → Poison ivy – Move per WP:COMMONNAME. Based on a PubMed search, the scientific name and the vernacular name are used interchangeably. This article is clearly the primary topic given that "Poison ivy" already redirects here. The previous discussion from 8 years ago mentions that other things can also be referred to as Poison ivy, but that's what the dab page is for.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 19:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Qualified support. The reasoning is sound here under WP:COMMONNAME, you did not say we have Poison ivy (disambiguation), but that is what is hatnoted from T. Radicans. I would at this point call in User:Plantdrew, who when I used to translate a lot on WP would help me out with how to translate French or Hungarian or German names into English common names. Of course, in the new decimal sytem, it should be "Poison 4", since "IV" is rather old fashioned :)84.236.27.182 (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2020 (UTC) WP:STRIKESOCK. -- Tavix ^(talk) 01:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: Toxicodendron radicans is often called "eastern poison ivy" and T. rydbergii "western poison ivy", though both occur across most of eastern North America, and T. rydbergii is actually the more common poison ivy in a lot of northeastern habitats. Many publications and articles will often refer to "it"/"poison ivy" as only T. radicans because they were previously considered the same species, and sometimes out of ignorance of the existence of the other species. Plants of the World Online, World Flora Online, Michigan Flora, Weakley, Chicago Flora, and GoBotany, among others, maintain the two poison ivies as separate species. Poison ivy should probably be disambiguated; a similarly disambiguated article title is poison oak. —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 23:46, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support - obvious WP:COMMONNAME justification. We can hatnote other plants if necessary. Also the DAB page should be at either Poison Ivy or Poison Ivy (disambiguation) per WP:DABNAME because most entries use the capitalized "Ivy". -- Netoholic @ 18:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose - On re-evaluation of the below comments, I believe a new article should be created at poison ivy as a wP:BROADCONCEPT that covers all the plants that fall in the category, and can include such sections as medical effects and treatments, etc. The specific species articles should be limited to botanical descriptions. -- Netoholic @ 02:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support, given that Rhus radicans still has currency. Readers who are looking up poison ivy do not need a lesson in taxonomy, and there is also WP:SURPRISE. Abductive (reasoning) 22:31, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose but wondering if there is any third option. For those who aren't familiar, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora) has some thoughts on the general topic. The tricky thing about this one for me is that split (or non-split) between T. radicans and T. rydbergii. I'm torn because on the one hand I have an impulse that the average reader is more concerned about what they have in common than how they differ, but on the other hand we need to cover the taxonomy somehow and we might make a mess if we ignore T. rydbergii or, probably worse, tried to lump together several "sufficiently similar" species into one article (Toxicodendron diversilobum and Toxicodendron pubescens are also similar plants, but have less-similar names at least in English). For the medical topics, pretty much any species of Toxicodendron would cause Urushiol-induced contact dermatitis and the one PubMed reference I checked - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32491789/ - does not use "poison ivy" as being synonymous with T. radicans. But I didn't try to look through the rest of PubMed, just a few of the top hits from a quick search. Kingdon (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

In general I prefer to use scientific names, but the taxonomic issues people are mentioning here as reasons to use the scientific name(s) are even better reasons to use the common name. Abductive (reasoning) 01:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Use the common name to mean what? A particular species? Some combination of more than one? Kingdon (talk) 02:23, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

We all know that there's no such thing as a species.... Abductive (reasoning) 16:35, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose as per WP:PRECISION. If "poison ivy" clearly referred to one species, then the move would be obvious, but it doesn't. As per Kingdon's response to Abductive above, what will "Poison ivy" redirect to? There's a case for a general article at this title on the medical effects of species of Toxicodendron that can be called "poison ivy", but not for selecting one species as the target. The onus is on those who want to make the move to show that "poison ivy" overwhelmingly refers to the current understanding of Toxicodendron radicans. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The case for the move on WP:COMMONNAME is weak as there are two species involved. There might be a case for a move to Eastern poison ivy, as that is the vernacular name mentioned in the taxonomic sources. The common name poison ivy seems to be used indiscriminately, so as stated above fails WP:PRECISION, although it's possible it is used more for one that could justify the redirect. I think the two species articles need to address this issue better. Was the there a species split and when, do they have separate distributions, each where they are known as plain poison ivy, or is there geographical overlap? This article starts by saying it is an Asian and eastern North American flowing plant, which is misleading if its only an introduced species in a few Asian countries (see POWO). —  Jts1882 | talk  08:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

The commom name is more precise. Also, one should, for the readers' sake, avoid recentism. Abductive (reasoning) 16:35, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

With respect to Asia, Plants of the World Online splits Toxicodendron orientale - http://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:71756-1 whereas I believe the sentence you quote was written assuming it is lumped with T. radicans. I mean is there a case for saying T. radicans, T. rydbergii and T. orientale are more similar to each other than to other species in this genus, and thus could be covered in a single article? I sort of like that solution in some ways but I'm not sure it is supported by sources and I'm wary of coming up with an armchair classification (by "classification" meaning broadly medical effects and popular awareness not just botanical taxonomy). At some point we need to try to look for WP:SECONDARY - I did check a few dictionaries at onelook.com and https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/poison%20ivy was the most interesting because definition 1a mentions ``Toxicodendron radicans`` specifically and definition 1b is "any of several plants closely related to poison ivy". Kingdon (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose “Poison ivy” and “Toxicodendron radicans” are two different concepts that do not encompass the same plants, this would not just be a name change. Really, both concepts should have an article. The current article should remain as is, but much of the content should be moved to a new article “poison ivy” that talks about all three species formerly included in radicans. Somatochlora (talk) 17:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Exactly. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose there are different species called by the common name poison-ivy.Hardyplants (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Poison ivy (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:16, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

New Article at Poison ivy

Per the above, I've created a new article at Poison ivy about all three species. Please contribute over there if you'd like. Also, I think a lot of the generic content about health effects could be removed from this page (I've moved it to the page already).Somatochlora (talk) 16:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Confusing structure regarding the plants

see my discussion entry at the talk page for Poison Ivy (disambiguation) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Poison_ivy_(disambiguation)#confusing_structure_regarding_the_plants 217.105.18.171 (talk) 15:46, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Toxicity and health effects

Hi. This article is basically repeating what the Poison ivy is saying about the health effects. Please use Transclusion {{#lst}} function to eliminate repeating. Bets. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:16, 3 July 2022 (UTC)