Talk:Tradesperson/Archives/2015

Requested move 6 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

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Tradesman → Tradesperson – This page was originally moved to "Tradesman" in 2006 because the word "tradesperson" didn't exist. Well, at this point: wikt:tradesperson. This page should be moved to Tradesperson per WP:S/HE which, in my mind, is superior to any WP:COMMONNAME claim to keep the article at its current title. Steel1943 (talk) 23:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Support. Per WP:S/HE. Tradesperson is also becoming more common in reliable sources. AusLondonder (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose – Practically nonexistent usage, the common term, per WP:UCN, is tradesman. Whereas the noted "WP:S/HE" guidance is just that, only a guideline, WP:UCN is a policy and MUST be adhered to. "Tradesman" has always been and remains the common term, as shown by Google Ngrams. Our job isn't to change common usage, but to adhere to it. RGloucester — ☎ 03:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:UCN does not apply in my view, unless you are suggesting the term 'tradesperson' would be "unrecognisable"? AusLondonder (talk) 04:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

We use the WP:COMMONAME. It does apply. It is part of our article titles policy. On the other hand, "WP:S/HE" is a mere guideline, which is trumped by the common name policy. "Tradesperson" is unrecognisable, as it is a neologism that is rarely used. The common form has always been "tradesman". Until that changes, this article remains here. RGloucester — ☎ 05:13, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UCN (use common names). This Google Ngram shows that tradesperson is extremely uncommon vis-à-vis tradesman. (And as an irrelevant aside, my spellcheck is telling me right now that tradesperson is a misspelling.) —  AjaxSmack  02:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed is a passing fad.[1] Modern usage has failed to embrace changing fooman to fooperson, instead, the "man" has become ungendered. Even man of the match is awarded to teenage girls without awkwardness. Stay consistent with the much better watched chairman.[2] --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tradesperson?? err no

Tradesperson is not a word in the English langauge, it isn't even a colloquelisim (err spell?) or a slang word so this article is in the wrong place. I propose a move back to Tradesman which is the correct term. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 10:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a word.100110100 10:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

umm no it isn't I'm afraid, and it isn't in the OED either... In fact the top google reference is this article: [3] with all the other sites beign corporations desperate to look PC in light of government approach. By contrast look at the tradesman version - not only is that the correctspelling but also the widely accepted usage! --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 11:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is no different than Journeyman, the term is much more commonly tradesman. Changing 'man' to 'person' can't fix issues of gender equality. The word 'man' is often used on the end of words like this, and today it doesn't neccessarily mean the term holds a specific gender to it. Its mearly part of the fact that English has some grammatical gender words which are "masculine", "feminine", or "neither". Its not a bad as the romance languages, like Spanish. In Spanish, just about everything is one or the other, and it defaults quite strictly to "masculine" in nature. For this, we unless the natural state of the English langauge moves strongly toward tradesperson, which, judging by google it does not yet, the article needs to move back to Tradesman. Kevin_b_er 22:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's so funny cause I'm not even the person who titled this article, nor [as far as I know] the article was even moved ever. Feminist theory states that male dominant language results in a male dominant society. Here's another arguement: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. For languages like Spanish, that's their problem, of course I couldn't fix it, cause I don't know Spanish, but given that I could, I would. It's a correct spelling for males, not for females; believe me, females would be uncomfortable being called male or a man, nor would you likewise. It's not the widely accepted usage, especially for an encyclopedia it's not, but for the sexist, I could see how......100110100 07:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I've found that tradesworker could also be used. Does that satisfy?100110100 11:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Sexism is a social problem not a grammatical one. In fact I have strong views on the subject but i want press them here. Suffice to say that insinuating that the word tradesman invites sexism isn't true. Sure the word came about because in the past it was men that worked but in modern times it applies generally. If this word is a problem we'll have to change all the others. For example these words are all mascualine:

• Prime minister
• Vicar
• Train Driver
• Guard

etc etc.

See English is a mascualine arientated language - most languages are. However those words and many others arn't under dispute. Even better example teacher, there are a much larger number of female teachers than male ones (at least at primary level) and yet there is not dispute over de-genderizing that word. Tradesworker is worse (also worker is a masculine word) as it suggests a job rather than a status!

I don't mind it staying as tradesperson for now, I can see that moving to tradesman could start another edit war, but I really don't like the term. --Errant Tmorton166^(Talk)(Review me) 19:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

"Tradesperson" is not a word. The word does not exist in the English language. Wikipedia's job is to reflect the actual terminology, not to invent and promote new terms in the interest of pushing P.C. This article needs to be changed back to Tradesman a.s.a.p. Puppy Mill 00:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

My Art History Professor uses tradespeople, not tradesmen. Could we move the page to Tradesperson please?100110100 00:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The 4th Edition Concise Oxford Dictionary (only one I have to hand) defines tradespeople as the "families of tradesmen" so there is certainly scope for misunderstanding between different English usages. I think this is based on historical class predjudices in Britain, that distinguished between those people who were in professions from those "in trade". "Tradespeople" was therefore a slightly derogatory term, distinguishing that class from "professional people". Bluewave 08:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The name "Tradie" is used in Australia to describe the typical hard working, tradesman or tradeswoman. This word is not found in the dictionary though. For example, carpenters, plumbers or electricians are defined as "tradie's". The phrase "Tidy Tradie" has become popular in Australia and it gets used a lot in marketing. This came about because in general, tradesmen had a bad reputation of creating a mess and not cleaning up after themselves. --Thetidytradie (talk) 20:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I would like to re-open this discussion. While tradesman is more WP:COMMON in casual conversation, it is no longer common or appropriate as a way of describing a profession. google:tradesperson receives a lot of hits. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:30, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The Ontario College of Trades uses the word "Tradesperson" in its public materials, as does the Red Seal website. In the Dean Report regarding the college of trades, at least one major trade organization refers to Those in the trades as a "Tradesperson". Canlii shows Federal legislation, as well as legislation from P.E.I, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, The Yukon Territories, The Northwest Territories, and Nunavut referring to the word "Tradesperson". Although it may not be the most common term, it's definitely used. To claim it's not a word in the English language is factually incorrect. SJ Zero (talk) 22:04, 15 December 2015 (UTC)