Talk:Traditional African religions/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Traditional African religions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Requested move 2

Latest comment: 10 years ago49 comments8 people in discussion

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – To reflect the fact that there are multiple different faiths that were developed and are practiced on the continent. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Rename - There are no govern conventions on TAR or ATR, and calling it a singular religion is confusing, and confuses readers--Inayity (talk) 20:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Oppose-Every religious tradition is diverse. The diversity within Christianity, Islam and Hinduism in particular has led many to wish to label them "Christianities" "Islams" and "Hinduisms" but because of the common use of the singular, like with "African Traditional Religion" that would be unwise. Hundreds of references to the above point can be given for those not experts on the literature. Let me know if you would like for me to provide such references indicating the enormous variety and diversity of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. Hinduism in particular. It would make more sense to include a paragraph about the diversity of the beliefs (I think the article represents that point well) than to rename it. Otherwise, there should definitely be renaming of the Christianity, Islam and Hinduism articles. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 22:50, 25 December 2013 (UTC) I think a good model of that would be the "Diversity and Inclusion" section of the Hinduism article. We could include it in the lead.

Hinduism lead:""Hinduism is the dominant religion[note 1] of the Indian subcontinent, particularly of India and Nepal. It includes Shaivism, Vaishnavism and Shaktism[2] among numerous other traditions, and a wide spectrum of laws and prescriptions of "daily morality" based on karma, dharma, and societal norms. Hinduism is a categorisation of distinct intellectual or philosophical points of view, rather than a rigid, common set of beliefs.[3]" Or have its own section:

Diversity and Inclusion Hinduism Section which notes the lack of a single founder, system of foundation, and inclusion of many religions under the label. Let me see if I can find an archive of a past discussion on the Hinduism page about renaming it to serve as a good model:""Diversity and inclusivism[edit] Diversity[edit] See also: Hindu denominations Hinduism has been described as a tradition having a "complex, organic, multileveled and sometimes internally inconsistent nature."[64] Hinduism does not have a "unified system of belief encoded in a declaration of faith or a creed",[35] but is rather an umbrella term comprising the plurality of religious phenomena of India.[65][66] According to the Supreme Court of India, Unlike other religions in the World, the Hindu religion does not claim any one Prophet, it does not worship any one God, it does not believe in any one philosophic concept, it does not follow any one act of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not satisfy the traditional features of a religion or creed. It is a way of life and nothing more".[67][68]Part of the problem with a single definition of the term "Hinduism" is the fact that Hinduism does not have a single historical founder.[35][15] It is a synthesis of various traditions,[13][21] the "Brahmanical orthopraxy, the renouncer traditions and popular or local traditions."[20] Also, Hinduism does not have a single system of salvation,[35] but consists of various religions and forms of religiosity.[69] Some Hindu religious traditions regard particular rituals as essential for salvation, but a variety of views on this co-exist. Some Hindu philosophies postulate a theistic ontology of creation, of sustenance, and of the destruction of the universe, yet some Hindus are atheists, they view Hinduism more as philosophy than religion. Hinduism is sometimes characterized by a belief in reincarnation (samsara) determined by the law of karma and the idea that salvation is freedom from this cycle of repeated birth and death.[note 20] Hinduism is therefore viewed as the most complex of all the living, historical world religions.[70]"" Having a section like this would be good I think instead of a rename. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 22:59, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Let me know if you need more references/comparisons: this may be a good exercise for future WP:Rename but thoughts before providing some more would be helpful. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 23:03, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Strange argument considering Islam is the name of a specific religion with a specific creed, like Christianity. How are you comparing a title which is used to generalize Native African faiths (with no genetic connection) into the same cart as specific religions? And This is why it needs be renamed b/c I think it causes confusion. Now if it is about "sources" please read Mbiti and the article which clearly states they are DIVERSE. I.e. not One religion with diverse schools of thought like Islam. Or denominations like Christianity. One religion (Masaai) has one God, the God of the BaKongo have 100. Hard to say "same"--Inayity (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

While I stand by my arguments regarding Islam and Christianity that may be a distraction at this point. I would like to focus on Hinduism whose definition is most similar to that of African Traditional Religion. So what of Hinduism? How is African Traditional Religion different from Hinduism? Including a section on diversity and inclusion like the Hinduism article should be more than enough. A name change in African Traditional Religion should necessitate a name change in the Hinduism article. What arguments have you made in regards to that? Including a 'diversity and inclusion' section similar to the one in the Hinduism should more than suffice. The Mbiti and other sources should be very helpful for that section if you wish to draft one. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 23:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Can we just limit it to ATR? (Pretty Please) People up and down in Africa never refer to their religious beliefs as Traditional African belief. (unlike Hindu's) Many of them have SPECIFIC names, the adherents certainly do not think the man in Congo and the man in Ethiopia are the same. PS did you read the links? --Inayity (talk) 23:59, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what your arguments may be for using a different standard African Traditional Religion compared to the other religions around the globe. What is your argument for African exceptionalism? I would be open to a change for African Traditional Religion if there is a parallel change to Hinduism. A Dravidian Tamil's religions practices compared to a Gujurati or a Punjabi are just as diverse as between regions in Africa, as are their histories, demographies, and languages. There are more people in India than all the African countries combined yet 80.5% of the population of India are considered Hindu. Unless you can articulate some compelling argument for making African Traditional Religion plural that does not also apply to Hinduism I am yet unsure what the particulars of your argument are. If you would like to include a 'diversity and inclusion' section similar to the one in the Hinduism section I would be more than happy to help. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 00:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC) Furthermore, people in India also articulate their faiths according to their rites (Shaivanism, Vishnuism etc.). If you are unfamiliar with Hinduism or the literature in religious studies in general,I would recommend first carefully reading the Hinduism article to get a better idea of the clear parallels between the argument for making African Traditional Religion plural and similar arguments that may be made for Hinduism. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 00:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea about Hinduism to even discuss anything about it. Do reliable sources use Hindusim in the plural? Well RS Source use ATR(s) in the plural. It is a popular discussion.Meaning the pluralization of the title is not a fringe issue. --Inayity (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

That is odd that you have no idea about Hinduism yet you wish to discuss pluralizing African Traditional Religion by comparing its diversity to other religions. African Traditional Religion is after all a religion, and it would make sense to have some grounding of how other religions are spoken about before deciding on how one of them should be defined in the plural while others are not with arguments regarding diversity. In any case, yes, the pluralization of Hinduism is a very hot topic in religious studies as most with a basic grounding in religion are aware of. See for example the Wikipedia page on Polytheism "Hinduism[edit]Further information: Hindu views on monotheism:Hinduism is a far from monolithic religion: many extremely varied religious traditions and practices are grouped together under this umbrella term and some modern scholars have questioned the legitimacy of unifying them artificially and suggest that one should speak of "hinduisms" in the plural.[15] Theistic Hinduism encompasses both monotheistic and polytheistic tendencies and variations on or mixes of both structures." As I said it would probably be wise to at least read the Hinduism article on Wikipedia to get some grounding on how other religions are defined as that is the whole point of this debate is it not? Definitions and terminology of religious traditions.Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 00:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

What is odd is you going on about Hinduism. I know about Africa that is what this page is about. Can we limit it to the religions in Africa! And please I am quoting the sources, --Inayity (talk) 00:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry-you are the one articulating the need to pluralize it due to the diversity of African religions. Diversity compared to what then? I am simply indicating that the other major religions in the world are similarly diverse, with a particular emphasis on Hinduism where the discussion of pluralizing it to "Hinduisms" has also been articulated. What is difficult to understand about this? That is why I recommend you at least read the Hinduism article so you can make arguments based on some foundation in reality because as of now you are not articulating your arguments very well. I am in fact unclear about what you are arguing at all beyond some kind of African exceptionalism that is not applied to other faiths, most notably Hinduism. Please let me know if I have missed some other kind of argument of yours or the other editors on this page. I am very interested in engaging on this issue but it is hard to do so if we are on different wavelengths. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 00:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I completely agree with you on the fact that African Traditional Religion is very internally diverse: creating a 'diversity and inclusion' section like the one on the Hinduism article I think would be a very good thing to do. Would you like help in drafting such a section? I cited the section from the Hinduism article above. I think that could be a good model for a similar section in this article. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Middayexpress, and Inayity.. But Andajara120000 made a good point. What's with counting them as multiple religion? Let's take Hinduism for a example. You will find them worshiping god through photos, nature, while some of them being adamant that pilgrimages are useless(means more strict monotheism than even Islam, etc).. But the religion will be called as Hinduism. Then there are people in Nepal, in India itself, Fiji, Mauritius, etc who worship different god than other in huge group, group of thousands-millions. But again, it's still Hinduism. Then if we talk about Islam, we had various groups like Ahmadiyya, Ghulat, Shia, etc who did just more than "Last prophet muhammad, and one God Allah", Right? In Christian religion, we had Cathars, Mormonism and others who contradicted with known Christianity. Indeed their worship varies from the areas as well. They do stick to different trends of the countries, they are often discriminated for that, for example Orthodox Christianity is basically unknown outside Russia. I mean this if you take such examples you may even tend to question if Traditional African Religion are different to each other or not, like these most populated religions are. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Let me just cut to the chase and clarify something. Andajara is not a scholar on Africa, or African religions. Please discuss those scholars points (with the ref given) and not fringe theories on a continent. Please now, I see no ref making that point, and it drifts into an off-topic. And This is not a forum.leave Original research for the forums --Inayity (talk) 06:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

African Traditional Religion, it's one religion. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:46, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

That book identifies 100s of religions by ethnicity, where did it say it is ONE same religion? Here is a specialist on the topic far more credits than that book Mbiti. So does Plural religionS, As well as African Religions: Symbol, Ritual, and Community (2nd Edition) by Benjamin C. Ray And thanks for taking the discussion out of the fringe or OR.--Inayity (talk) 06:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Author is probably talking about the beliefs that took place under the same roof. [1] explains well. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

If you look hard enough for "one religion" i am sure you will find something or the other in some out of print poorly reviewed book by an unknown author. So her is another ref: K. Chukwulozie Anyanwu But you are searching for points and forgetting context. Again RS, even some Afrocentric sources reject the concept of One religion. Moving back to the balance between ATR and ATRs, b/c both are used. The plural form is more accurate reflection of the plurality of the continent (Olademo) --Inayity (talk) 07:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

If it's started, we may find population for every sect in other religions too, and branches. Like discussed previously. And no, it's not even hard to find that this is not a single religion. What made you think that it's not one religion, but multiple? "Spear Masters: An Introduction to African Religion", p. 162, regarded it as "one religion with a vast array of denominations."[2].

Followers of African religion make no distinction between religion and other aspects of their lives. Their beliefs are so closely bound to their culture that religion and culture are one." - "the African traditional religion could be better seen as one religion with unique principles.." Bladesmulti (talk) 07:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you might not be grasping the topic as you are confusing different things. Culture in Africa is diverse (we know that right, I mean those of us that live or read Africa). If culture is tied to religion and ethnicity then how is it the same. It obviously is hard b/c all your ref are debunked. And Asante is hardly an expert on religion, he is an expert of Afrocentrism, it is politically driven work, not NPOV scholarship. And citing "one religion" is like quoting a Sufi on "all religions share the same ethics"--it is not scholarly analysis.And the sentiment does not mean all religions in Africa are the same? Tell me are all languages the same also? what process could make a continent share one religion (does not make sense). I will now end the discussion and let others add something else, b/c we are going around in circles. --Inayity (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's a point now, that we got scholarly views, opinions, that it's only one religion, but different denominations, culture, etc. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Oppose I haven't read all the above, but what I have read seems to miss Middayexpress's point. I believe his point is that there are many traditional African religions, so the title should be plural. However, WP naming preferences are to use the singular unless that would be misleading. The current title does not suggest that there is only one such religion, so I see no reason for the plural. — kwami (talk) 07:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

It is interesting you say "unless it would be misleading" from the above discussion clearly it has mislead many and this is the main reason I take issue with it.--Inayity (talk) 07:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

It's just a way of life, it's not enforced neither promoted, thus you may not be aware about this religion, since it's not common knowledge. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Some additional scholarly opinions backing Bladesmulti up, a good recent reference discussing the pluralizing question from 2013 is Matthew Clarke, Handbook of Research on Development and Religion (2013), Northampton, MA: Edward Elgar, from p. 145, books.google.com/books?isbn=0857933574 in his chapter "African Traditional Religion" here is an excerpt-: "So what distinguishes African traditional religion? What practices, beliefs and institutions underpin its spiritual cosmology? How possible is it to treat such a diverse and geographically diffuse number of traditions as a single religion, and just how 'traditional' is ATR? The following section attempts to provide insight into these fundamental questions, beginning with a short consideration of the deeply problematic question of whether ATR constitutes a single belief system, or whether it is a collection of several distinct religions, and a discussion of what it is that makes ATR 'traditional.'" Here he gives a good summary of the historical trends within religious studies regarding this issue. As pointed out by editors on this page, the singular "African Traditional Religion" is very widely used in the traditional literature and is not a "fringe" designation by any stretch of the imagination. As kwami pointed out it probably really is now just a matter of the WP rule regarding misleading titles. Many references have been pointed out to you by editors on this page regarding the wide use of the singular designation, but remember the burden really is on you, Inayitiy, to demonstrate how the current title is misleading enough to necessitate a change of the status quo. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 08:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I would especially like to direct you to the section titled "'Unity in Diversity'-Tradition and Plurality in ATR," pp. 145-151, in it he gives a good summary of the arguments on this specific issue by various scholars (leading him to support the singular designation).

U c these colon thing, copy the last person's and add one. i have already listed my sources All Reliable Sourcesfrom leading scholars. And you will do well to stop using straw man arguments on what I accused of being fringe. (re: Hinduism and one Native African religion). --Inayity (talk) 08:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

And THANKS for that ref IMPORTANT REF Because it frames the debate we are having. --Inayity (talk) 08:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Comment - The title is indeed confusing. Although it has some currency in the religious literature, the overwhelming majority of that literature is using the term "religion" in the same broad way that "cuisine" is used in "African cuisine". Unlike this wiki page (at least based on the discussion above), that religious literature is not implying that there is a monolithic African religion that many of the continent's people subscribe to because this is obviously not the situation. The Akan religion, for example, bears little relation to Berber mythology or the Maasai's Ngai faith. These are all separate belief systems not different branches of the same religion. Per WP:COMMONNAME, "Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." The commonname for the topic is by far "Traditional African religions", so this is what the page should be moved to. This naming convention is also observed on the other religion pages (Eastern religions and East Asian religions). Middayexpress (talk) 13:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Berber mythology is largely overlooked now, their culture was ended by about 300 A.D. I think, after Algeria was taken by Constantine, and others. Hopefully I will look into it, thanks for mentioning it here. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

No prob. It's listed on the wiki page as one of the traditional religions. Middayexpress (talk) 13:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Books that use African Traditional Religion (singular) in their titles That is actually patently untrue. "African Traditional Religion" is actually more commonly used. Here are some books that Use "African Traditional Religion" in their titles. There are very few books that use "African Traditional Religions" in their title:

Cornelius Olowola, African Traditional Religion and the Christian Faith (1993), books.google.com/books?id=5YbYAAAAMAAJ

Aloysius Muzzanganda Lugira, African Traditional Religion (2009), books.google.com/books?isbn=1438120478

Richard J. Gehman, African Traditional Religion in Biblical Perspective (2005), books.google.com/books?isbn=9966253548

Tatah Humphrey Mbuy, African Traditional Religion as Anonymous Christianity (1994), books.google.com/books?id=RCEvAAAAYAAJ

David Chidester, African Traditional Religion in South Africa (1997), books.google.com/books?isbn=0313032254

Yusufu Turaki, Foundations of African Traditional Religion and Worldview (2006), books.google.com/books?isbn=9966805826

Emele Mba Uka, Readings in African Traditional Religion (1991), books.google.com/books?id=dRURAQAAIAAJ

Onwumere A. Ikwuagwu, Initiation in African Traditional Religion (2004), books.google.com/books?isbn=3429029090

Osadolor Imasogie, African Traditional Religion (1985), books.google.com/books?isbn=978154693X

Bregje De Kok, Christianity and African Traditional Religion(2004), books.google.com/books?isbn=9990876177

O. Oladimeji, African Traditional Religion (1980), books.google.com/books?id=Ubp4AAAAMAAJ

Chukwudum Barnabas Okolo, African Traditional Religion and Christianity (1995), books.google.com/books?id=aDKNAAAAMAAJ

Kwasi Apresse, Essentials of African Traditional Religion - Volume 1 (1989), books.google.com/books?id=0h4RAQAAIAAJ

Daniel W. Kasomo, Rituals in African Traditional Religion (2010), books.google.com/books?isbn=3838397681

Blaise Emebo, Healing and Wholeness in African Traditional Religion (2008), books.google.com/books?isbn=3832255796

Joseph S. Gbenda, African traditional religion and Christianity in a changing world (1997), books.google.com/books?id=hC6NAAAAMAAJ

Karl Heinrich Grebe, African Traditional Religion and Christian Counseling (1997), books.google.com/books?id=rzCNAAAAMAAJ

Eric Oduro Wiafe, Christianity and African Traditional Religion 's approach (2008), books.google.com/books?id=lhhPAQAAIAAJ

I.O. Alaba, African Traditional Religion and ecology (1995), books.google.com/books?id=7JRuAAAAMAAJ

Chibueze C. Nwabuko, Issues in African Traditional Religion (1998), books.google.com/books?id=lS55AAAAMAAJ

Michael Y. Nabofa, Religious communiciation: a study in African traditional religion (1994), books.google.com/books?id=uTIvAAAAYAAJ

Makerere University College, Occasional Papers in African Traditional Religion Volumes 4-5 (1972), books.google.com/books?id=husRAQAAIAAJ

Nnamdi Anacletus Odoemene, The Fundamentals of African Traditional Religion (1988), books.google.com/books?id=WiIRAQAAIAAJ

Wale Egberongbe, African Traditional Religion:We are no Pagans (2003), books.google.com/books?isbn=9781262265

And so on, and so on, and so on, and so forth...

In comparison, can you direct us to books that use "African Traditional Religions" in their title? I have been able to find very few in comparison. How can it at all be confusing when it is used in the titles of hundreds of books written over decades while the plural, in comparison, has not? Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 13:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, similar experience I had, while I was mining for sources. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Most of those works above likely use "African traditional religion" in the plural sense (like "African cuisine), not in the monolithic Africa-only-has-one-religion sense. That said, "Traditional African religions" has 743,000 Google hits [3] versus 457,000 for "Traditional African religion" [4]. "African traditional religion", on the other hand, only has 113,000 hits [5]. "Traditional African religions" is thus indeed by far the commonname. Middayexpress (talk) 14:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Well we are discussing terminology here, not meaning. If you take the time to read the previous discussion the diversity of African Traditional Religion is not being questioned, just like Hinduism it is very diverse yet still referred in the unity. If you could compile a list of books (not articles as then I would have to go and compile another list of articles myself and we may never end) using your terminology that would be good for those still interested in this discussion. The consensus so far (three editors-bladesmulti, kwami, and me versus two - inaytiy and middayexpress) seems to be however to be to Oppose Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 14:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

513,000 for "religion", and 881,000 for "religions". Not too coherent, as there are probably more search results that supports the controversial 9-11 inside job theory than the official one. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes and as pointed out by kwami, the preference for Wikipedia naming is for articles to be in the singular unless it will cause confusion to the reader and inaytiy and middayexpress have yet to demonstrate how keeping a title with terminology that is extensively used in the literature will cause any sort of confusion that is any more than, say, keeping Hinduism in the singular does for readers of that article. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 14:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Same with christianity, islam, etc, like i mentioned before, that much of their population have different beliefs as well. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Hold up? We have not demonstrated what again? Even all those books are debating it so obviously when all major authors on the topic are themselves trying to clear up the confusion of the name it means the name, unlike Islam, Judaism is highly controversial. So the books you listed prove it is confusing.I also realize you like arguing in a circle, cuz you still bring up Islam an organized religion with pillars and a centralized doctrine. --Inayity (talk) 14:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Guys, WP:COMMONNAME is the relevant naming convention policy here. Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are single religions; very large ones, yes, but still single religions whose branches ultimately have common origins. This isn't so with many of the hundreds of different traditional religions practiced in Africa. Very few mainstream sources assert that they all stem from or belong to a single faith. That includes most of the works titled "African traditional religion" themselves. Middayexpress (talk) 14:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe more of us would be preaching Traditional African Religion if it they had promoted themselves.. Correct? The basic knowledge is, that just because the beliefs, practices differ a bit from the major school, doesn't means that it should be just another religion. Never talked about the Islam's main doctrines, but highlighted the Shia, Barelvi, Ahmadiyya, etc, who contradict with actual Islam, but still they are regarded as part of Islam. Same with these theories, under the African Traditional Religion. Obviously for a reason we got the known historians, writers, etc who explained exactly same thing that i just did once again. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

We can do more justice to this issue by focusing on the Common name issue. Not bring up Islam which has a single origin in 7th C which no denomination of Islam denies. It is like language families. and their genetic relationship. --Inayity (talk) 14:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

We can do more justice by focusing on scholarship position on the subject. 'Andajara120000' brought a lot of good points above including a list of book titles using the singular form. The parallel with other religions was also brought up scholarly by Idowu (cited by another work): As Christopher I. Ejizu points out also, there is no valid reason to single out African Traditional religion, while accepting as normal a multiplicity of denominations, even rival sects in other religions of humankind, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. From Death and After-life Rituals in the Eyes of the Shona. DrLewisphd (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I also think the title should stay in the singular. 'Andajara120000' posted above many book titles using the singular form. Here's a couple of quote from books about that subject:The individual expressions may be different, but a general similarity prevails throughout the continent, so that we may speak of African Traditional Religion in the singular. -African Traditional Religion in Biblical Perspective

By Richard J. Gehman

While scholars remain divided on the views emanating from Mbiti and Idowu, recent scholarship pervasively embraces the use of African Traditional Religion in the singular. These scholars contend that the common world-view within these religions, as well as the similarity in rituals, belief-systems, value formulations, and institutional formation across the vast African continent, provide a basic and firm foundation for maintaining the reference to a singular form in referring to African traditional religions even while accepting and acknowledging (contemporaneously) the existence of a burgeoning number of denominations. -A Companion to African American History edited by Alton Hornsby, Jr.

Most scholars are beginning to see that there is more weight in the argument that the existence of a common world-view as well as the similarities in the belief systems, ritual forms, values and institutions across the various regions of the continent, provide sufficient base for keeping the singular form of the name. - From Death and After-life Rituals in the Eyes of the Shona by Canisius Mwandayi

So basically, those quotes point out that recent scholarship mostly support the use of the singular form. DrLewisphd (talk) 20:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

COMMENT:As Midday said and the ref prove, most senior positions are a plural view. What we are discussing is not if they are ONE religion, clearly that is a fringe view. Just like saying (per Midday) African cuisine means one dish. Yet the singular is used. So I am not sure who Canisius is , or other non-specialist on the topic. The singular spelling is a different issue, and I fear we are discussing two things. I have a task we must do regardless of the outcome. It is clear there is a lot of text on this issue and it should now end up in the article under a new section. Clearly it is central to the ATR article since it has caused so much back and forth--Inayity (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The whole issue is irrelevant to the title, which is the only point of this discussion. If the plural needs to be used somewhere in the text, that can changed without further discussion. We're just spinning our wheels here. — kwami (talk) 06:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - I see this article as about religion in general, not about a number of specific religions. i.e. usage 1 from our Wiktionary page, rather than usage 2. Hence it does not really make sense to pluralise it, just as we would not pluralise Religion in Africa. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 14:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Link to Animism

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The obvious references to Animism are strangely absent. --Amaruca (talk) 09:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Portal for this topic

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

I am creating a portal for this topic (Portal|Traditional African religion) before finally disappearing again from Wiki. I admit it is long overdue and any help or recommendations would be appreciated. We particular need to decide on an image link for the portal before I finish it and submit a template request with the portal team. Regards. Tamsier (talk) 20:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: The {{Portal|Traditional African religion}} is now finished and can be viewed here. As stated above, I need your opinions on which image you think we can use as a portal link before submitting the request to the portal team. For example if you add {{Portal|Nigeria}} to Nigerian related articles, the portal would automatically show the Nigerian flag. I was thinking of using this Dogon or Tellem Nommo image. I like it because of what it symbolises: "hands held high symbolising prayer for rain" based on their traditional religion. If you guys have another image in mind, please share your thoughts here. Also please help by adding {{Portal|Traditional African religion}} to articles relating to Traditional African religions. Thanks. Tamsier (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move unopposed (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk) 00:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – This article isn't talking about a single religion, but rather a collection of different religions, that are indigenous to the African continent. It seem wrong to use singular "religion", when other articles discussing groups of religions (such as: Western religions, Abrahamic religions, etc.) are plural. Jamie Tubers (talk) 23:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What happened to the lead?

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Someone in their wisdom have taken off the lead. I don't know what happened here.Senegambianamestudy (talk) 00:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

This IP removed the lead. I've added it back.Senegambianamestudy (talk)

Wrong conception

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Moved from User talk:TheDragonFire

I'm a student of comparative religions from Nigeria and I so much, in high esteem respect your article on African traditional religion, but there is just one thing there. "Ase" is a Yoruba word and it is never spelt as Ashe. Thanks very much. Maximilian Kastro (talk) 21:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Find a source that says this and the change will likely be made. It is my understanding that westerners sometimes spell it as "Ashe". Hesnotblack (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 27 July 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago9 comments6 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdraw. For now. There is some confusion that needs to be sorted out through discussion. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:05, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Traditional African religions → Traditional African religion – The RM was closed as "unopposed" though there were no votes and there was no discussion.[6] Check the previous RM at Talk:Traditional African religions/Archive 3#Requested move 2. The discussion from 2013 was lengthy and it thoroughly debunked the argument that was used in the RM from 8 November 2016. The editor who carried out the last RM has no issue with this requested reversal.[7] OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 15:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

References that define the religion as "Traditional African religion":

Faye Z Belgrave; Kevin W Allison (2009). African American Psychology: From Africa to America. SAGE. p. 274. ISBN 9781412965552.
Inus Daneel; Charles Van Engen; Hendrik Vroom (2005). Fullness of Life for All: Challenges for Mission in Early 21st Century. Rodopi. p. 121. ISBN 9789042019713. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1= and |2= (help)
Africa Since 1935, Volume 8. University of California Press. 1999. p. 501. ISBN 9780520067035.

OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 19:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

"African Traditional religion" has been used very often as title of the books (list copied from the archived discussion).

Cornelius Olowola, African Traditional Religion and the Christian Faith (1993), [8]

Aloysius Muzzanganda Lugira, African Traditional Religion (2009), [9]

Richard J. Gehman, African Traditional Religion in Biblical Perspective (2005), [10]

Tatah Humphrey Mbuy, African Traditional Religion as Anonymous Christianity (1994), [11]

David Chidester, African Traditional Religion in South Africa (1997), [12]

Yusufu Turaki, Foundations of African Traditional Religion and Worldview (2006), [13]

Emele Mba Uka, Readings in African Traditional Religion (1991), [14]

Onwumere A. Ikwuagwu, Initiation in African Traditional Religion (2004), [15]

Osadolor Imasogie, African Traditional Religion (1985), [16]

Bregje De Kok, Christianity and African Traditional Religion(2004), [17]

O. Oladimeji, African Traditional Religion (1980), [18]

Chukwudum Barnabas Okolo, African Traditional Religion and Christianity (1995), [19]

Kwasi Apresse, Essentials of African Traditional Religion - Volume 1 (1989), [20]

Daniel W. Kasomo, Rituals in African Traditional Religion (2010), [21]

Blaise Emebo, Healing and Wholeness in African Traditional Religion (2008), [22]

Joseph S. Gbenda, African traditional religion and Christianity in a changing world (1997), [23]

Karl Heinrich Grebe, African Traditional Religion and Christian Counseling (1997), [24]

Eric Oduro Wiafe, Christianity and African Traditional Religion 's approach (2008), [25]

I.O. Alaba, African Traditional Religion and ecology (1995), [26]

Chibueze C. Nwabuko, Issues in African Traditional Religion (1998), [27]

Michael Y. Nabofa, Religious communiciation: a study in African traditional religion (1994), [28]

Makerere University College, Occasional Papers in African Traditional Religion Volumes 4-5 (1972), [29]

Nnamdi Anacletus Odoemene, The Fundamentals of African Traditional Religion (1988), [30]

Wale Egberongbe, African Traditional Religion:We are no Pagans (2003), [31]

Inviting some of the former participants such as Kwamikagami, Jamie Tubers, Amakuru to share their opinion regarding this RM. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 19:39, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. This is not the name of a thing, so COMMONNAME does not apply. Rather, it's a descriptive phrase, so clarity reigns. The proposed title, "African Traditional religion" is perfectly correct. The problem with it is that in implies that there is a religion called "African Traditional religion". This wouldn't be a problem for anyone familiar with the topic, but will be confusing for those who aren't. Some of our readers think that Africa is a country, so it's best to err on the side of clarity. — kwami (talk) 20:22, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per kwami. And shame on the nominator for trying to push this clearly potentially controversial move through as "technical". Johnbod (talk) 22:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely not. This is WP:Systemic bias nonsense, the false idea that all "those people" in Africa are just one monolithic culture. They most assuredly are not. We also see this kind of of "lump 'em all together" stuff with regard to indigenous peoples of the Americas and especially of the US. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:32, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Oppose. The problem here is that there isn't just one monolithic "traditional African religion" — this is an overview about several different things, not just one thing. So Kwamikagami is right, the title should properly be a descriptive phrase for clarity. Bearcat (talk) 03:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rename portal as per above?

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Can someone please rename the portal as per the above discussion? Senegambianamestudy (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Title

Latest comment: 6 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion

@Bearcat and SMcCandlish: Christianity, Islam, and many other religions don't refer to one particular sect or denomination or belief either. They have many branches. In case you might have not noticed, I had mentioned "African Traditional Religion" above which Kwamikagami has already referred as "perfectly correct". Whether this refers to one thing or multiple, that should not be a issue for RM because the RM was about what is more WP:COMMON name.

"Traditional African religion" is clearly a more common name when we compare it with "Traditional African religions". "African Traditional Religion" is about 50 times more common term than "Traditional African religions" according to Google. The page was originally titled as "African tradition religion" until Kwamikagami modified the title from "African traditional religion" to "Traditional African religion" in 2011.[32] To say that this title refers to only one religion is definitely WP:OR. African Traditional Religion, means "i.e. African religious beliefs and the underlying force of African cultural practices."[33] I can discover more sources. Not only the raw Google results but those of Google Books, JSTOR, Google Scholars, affirm that "African Traditional Religion" is the most common term. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:22, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

"Most common name on Google" is only a thing when we're talking about the proper name of a thing with an objective name, like a person, place or thing — when we're talking about the descriptive name of a concept, there is no such thing as "counting the Google hits to see whether the singular is more or less common than the plural or vice versa". If we're not talking about the proper name of a thing, then we give zero shits about comparing the number of Google hits — the only thing we care about in that situation is our own manual of style. And the fact that Christianity and Islam have multiple sects and denominations isn't relevant, because nobody ever speaks of Christianities or Islams — those are proper nouns that don't get pluralized under any circumstances, while religion is a generic class noun that does get pluralized if there are two or more religions being referred to as a group. Bearcat (talk) 07:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, this is just hopelessly confused. A categorizing phrase is not a name, and a bunch of completely unrelated African religions are a religion with denominations. This is racialist OR. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:33, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

OccultZone, your comparison to Islam and Xanity suggests you believe this to be a religion, which is precisely why we should *not* move it. By "correct" I just meant that your phrasing could be used generically. A better comparison would be e.g. "Asian religion", which doesn't imply that Hinduism and Islam are sects of an Asian religion. Unfortunately, giving many people's ignorance, "African religion" is going to be read as meaning that there is an African religion. — kwami (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Wait.... let me get this; you actually think denominations of Christianity and Islam, are comparable to a group of completely unrelated religions on the African continent? This is unbelievable.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

No. I said that treatment is similar. *Read these links.[34][[35] You should wonder why African Traditional religion is estimated to have 100 million followers,[36][37] while no separate statistics for branches are available. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Traditional African religions for deletion

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Traditional African religions is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Traditional African religions until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism by IPs 102.182.96.235 and 102.182.96.235

Latest comment: 5 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

These IPs keeps vandalising this article here, here and and here. I've reverted them, but can this article be semi protected or block these IPs? Senegambianamestudy (talk) 23:07, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Each ip just has 1-2 edits, so semi-protection is the way to go. Johnbod (talk) 00:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you mind initiating a semi-protection? Senegambianamestudy (talk) 01:00, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not an admin - one needed. Johnbod (talk) 01:13, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I have requested a semi protection here Senegambianamestudy (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Unusable Link

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Notes 22, 27, and 30 are for the same link: https://worldhistoryconnected.press.uillinois.edu/2.1/ehret.html 22 and 30 do not work, leading to a 404 page. There is an added comma at the end of the url that causes this to happen. Also, if the notes are all from the same source, shouldn't they be under one number? It is also a primary source, and therefore not as reliable as a secondary source.

Sora360 (talk) 13:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Sora360, I was able to open that link on my tablet, but you are correct, they should preferably all point to the same citation via ref name. I'll have another look tomorrow. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 14:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Sora360, perhaps try the link from another device? I had no trouble from tablet or laptop. Anyway, I've improved the citation and ensured that all three point to the same one. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 October 2020

Latest comment: 4 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 21:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Traditional African religions → African religions – This is a great article. However, it's better titled as "African religions" rather than "African traditional religions" because the word "tradition" brings with it meanings such as old, outdated, customary and yet not verifiable, primitive and so forth. Take Christianity in Ethiopia for example. It was practiced since two thousand years ago. It's quite old. And yet it doesn't get the "traditional" label applied to it. Judaism is even much older. Again, it's not referred to as "traditional religion in Israel" - it's simply "Judaism". The distinction between African religions discussed in this article and other religions (primarily Abrahamic religions in Africa) is that African religions were created in Africa whereas it is widely accepted that the others were created elsewhere. Besides that difference, both groups of religions are old (traditional) and have continued to evolve to this day (modern). The other point is that some of the African religions have been orally transferred. But this is not true of every African religion. So the title "Oral African religions" isn't accurate either. It's impossible to find an attribute that applies to all these religions except them being African. I think we should just stick to "African religions". 86.11.149.51 (talk) 19:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. Religion in Africa is a separate article that already exists, and it sounds like you're not proposing a merger. There needs to be some clarification / distinction here that this article is only about the older African religions, since Christianity and Islam are certainly African religions too. It's possible there's a better title than this one, but at least 4 titles in the current Bibliography use "Traditional Religion" or "African Traditional Religion", so it'd need to be a new title with equal backing. SnowFire (talk) 04:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. as above Religion in Africa is a separate article that already exists, and this is about traditional African religions. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per above reasons. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:46, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose per above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.