Talk:Transgender history in Brazil/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Maddy from Celeste (talk · contribs) 23:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Claiming my spot here, I'll start reviewing tomorrow. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 23:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Just finished going through and fixing up things! I went in order of your notes (with the exception of touching up the lead last rather than first). Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 06:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added one more comment regarding criterion 1a. I'll go through and spot check the rest of the article later. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 12:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I was a bit busy today, but I did spot checks up to "Military dictatorship", and have added a couple of nitpicks. I should have more time in the coming days, so this will progress a bit faster. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I've finished up my spot checks! -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Images

• File:Alma_de_Paradeda_-_colorized.jpg – the source website says it's "Creative Commons licensed" but doesn't specify which licence. Could you hit up Erlick to ask her to specify a licence on the website?
• File:Cláudia Celeste Archivo (II).jpg – the immediate source gives a Creative Commons licence, but this is a newspaper excerpt from 1977. It may still be copyrighted, and if so, does the website have permission to redistribute it like this? Y
• File:IV-ENTLAIDS-1996.jpg – the public domain notice on this requires that it was first published before 1 March 1989 without copyright notice or before 1964 without copyright renewal or before the source country established copyright relations with the United States, but Brazil did have copyright relations with the US at the time. However, the article it's reprinted in is published under CC BY. Can you verify that it doesn't have any exemption there regarding the images, and then revise the licencing information on Commons? Y
• File:Erika Hilton.png – this has a free licence, but the licence on Commons doesn't seem to correspond to the one specified at the source. Y
• Images look relevant, but several captions have information not mentioned in the body. I think the main information should be in the body, with a catchy caption to draw attention to it. Otherwise, they at least require citations. Y
• For me at least, the images run off the end of the body text and into the references. Check this after eventual removals for copyright reasons and adjust accordingly. Y
• This is sadly not a GA criterion, but alt text would be an important addition. Y
• According to the article Tibira do Maranhão, they were executed for homosexuality. Is there something more that makes them relevant to this article? Y

@Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist: first comments are up, more to follow. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• I'll try and reach out to Erlick about it
• Not sure but I believe so: reverse image search shows it's the first use of that image, Revista Geni is registered with the ISSN, and Brazil's copyright laws are softer than many (particularly on photographs of people)
• Yes, no exemption AFAICT so I'll update it.
• I'll fix up the license
• Agree, I'll move some more stuff from the captions to the body
• On my computer it lines up well both logged in and checking from incognito (but I have a decently sized monitor). Could you email a picture of how it's rendering?
• Agree, I'll add them
• The enwiki article is not great lol. The ptwiki one makes it more clear there's a decent amount of historical support they were trans/third-gender (some details mentioned in the body in this article).
• Quick note: I'll be responding section by section.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

As regards Celeste, I thought it was just a random website. Given that it looks like a somewhat serious publication, I'll trust that they've got their copyright ducks in a row. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 11:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Also if you're going to be contacting Erlick, you could ask for the full-resolution photo, as instructed on her website. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 12:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Just updated with the full resolution photo! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Good job! I'm afraid you'll have to get back to Eli, though, because her website now specifies the CC BY licence, but we also need to know the version. In the meantime, since this is my first review, I'll ask someone to look over it and give me feedback. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I just sent her an email asking her to specify the version. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Eli updated it earlier today! Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

That's a pass! Congrats! -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 07:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Writing

Lead

• The lead is four paragraphs; MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends 2–3 for an article this length. I think some details could probably be trimmed and the lead reduced to three paragraphs. Y
• The first paragraph starts two subsequent sentences with "by the". Could this be worded differently? Y
• The military dictatorship in Brazil (1964-1985) included harsh government measures – included feels weird here. Y
• The first surgery for a trans woman took place in 1971, which led to the imprisonment of the operating doctor for 2 years, and travestis began to star on television. This feels like it implies a causal relation between the doctor going to jail and travestis on TV. Y
• Over the next decade, more trans organizations were created and became formally recognized as a part of a broader LGBT movement by LGB organizers and the government. This reads ambiguously (were they formally recognized as being part of an LGBT movement, or was their recognition part of an LGBT movement?). I'd split this into two clauses for clarity. Y
• In 2008 the surgeries began to be covered by the unified health system with pathologizing requirements and in 2009 the courts established a right to change your name and gender on your birth certificate after surgery. In 2017, the requirement became judicial recognition of transgender identity and in 2019 self-attestation. The requirements being pathologizing isn't mentioned in the body. I wouldn't use the impersonal you in formal writing. "the requirement" is ambiguous. Y

Indigenous peoples and colonization

• Their tribal leader, who had been ordered to baptize then execute them, told them they would have the body of a woman in heaven. This could mean very different things depending on whether the person was transmasculine or transfeminine. Is this something we know? Y

20th century

• In the 1920s and 30s, artists John Bridges and Aymond were successful imitators of popular actresses of the era. I think I understand what is meant here, but a little more context, if it exists, could be helpful. Was imitating actresses a common trans way of gender expression at the time? Y

Military dictatorship (1964–1985)

• Could we have some historical context on the military dictatorship and why so many people left? Y
• In 1964, Rogéria became a star in revue shows and shortly after immigrated to Europe with other famous travestis where she became one of the first Brazilian travestis to start gender-affirming hormone therapy. Since we're talking about Brazil, emigrated could fit better here. Or just moved. Y
• Shortly after the stars fled, primarily to Paris, approximately 200 travestis followed them to the city. This implies that the stars weren't travestis themselves. An other could do wonders here. Y
• The majority of travestis were systematically pressured into prostitution during this period. The ones who emigrated or those who remained? Y
• …the minister of foreign affairs José de Magalhães Pinto, hunted LGBT people… I assume he persecuted them; if he actually hunted queer people, that would deserve some major elaboration. Y
• In the mid-1970s in São Paulo over 2,000 travestis were systematically arrested and treated like political prisoners. Was this a singular event, or a total over some time? Could use some clarification either way. Y

Post-dictatorship period (1986–1999)

• In 1987, the president of the group Triângulo Rosa ('pink triangle'), João Antônio Mascarenhas, appeared before the national council to say that there would be confusion between homosexuals and travestis. What national council? "that there would be" is unclear to me. Y
• Until the 1990s, travestis and transsexuals were not formally included in the Brazilian Homosexual Movement. Brazilian Homosexual Movement being an organization? I see this is mentioned before
• In 1995, travesti organizations were formally included in spaces for the first time at the VIII Brazilian meeting of gay and lesbians. What spaces? Y
• Travestis became a part of the acronym with the creation of the Brazilian Association of Gays, Lesbians, and Travestis (ABGLT; Associação Brasileira de Gays, Lésbicas, Bissexuais, Travestis e Transexuais). Bisexuals are included in the Portuguese name but not the English one?
  • Now the full name of the ABGLT doesn't seem to be mentioned at all, which I don't think is clearer.
    • Just fixed it! It's mentioned earlier but I'd written AGLT instead of ABGLT by accident. I think a point of confusion is that "Bisexual" was added to the organization years after the addition of "Travesti" (as part of a larger trend in Brazil from "homosexual" to "gays and lesbians" to "gays, lesbians, and travestis" to "LGBT"). And even with later additions of "Bisexual", "Transexual", and "Intersex" to the full name, their acronym/logo remains "ABGLT". Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
• In 1997, the Transsexual Movement of Campinas (Movimiento Transexual de Campinas) was formed from contacts between ENTLAIDS organizations. What is an ENTLAIDS organization in this context? Y
• It distinguished itself for its pedagogical concerns about transsexuality… It is not immediately apparent to me what pedagogical concerns about transsexuality could be. Could this be elaborated on? Y

21st century

• I don't think using Roman numerals for ordinals is common in English (XXII EBGLT, IV ENTLAIDS). Y
• What is the EBGLT? Y
• In 2017, the STJ replaced the requirement of surgery with that of judicially proving transgender identity. "judicially proving" feels rather vague, could the process be briefly summarized here?
  • I see the source doesn't say much about it either, so it can stay I suppose. Y
• In 2018, GADVS, a legal LGBT organization… What does GADVS stand for, and were illegal LGBT organizations still common in 2018? Y
• In 2019, the STF issued a ruling criminalizing LGBTphobia, however a 2021 study found 34 barriers to its implementation. LGBTphobia is rarely used on Wikipedia. I think it'd be better to specify what was criminalized: discrimination, hate speech, etc.? Y
• The term transfemicide could benefit from a definition. Y
• Confinement to me is something that happens in a prison. Lockdown feels like a commoner term. Y

Verifiability

• Reflist is ok.
• Fernandes & Arisi (2017) could use some page numbers. Y
• Silva, Costa and Maciel (2017) has a dead link. Is this available somewhere else online? Y
• This is outside the GA criteria, but refs 17 and 18 have incomplete citations. Y
• References are reliable.
• Inline citations are in order.
• Will do spot checks later.

Spot checks

• Xica Manicongo, an African slave, was the first travesti recorded in Brasil; The source says Manicongo was "o primeiro caso de travestilidade que se tem notícias em áreas urbana". With my bad Portuguese and a little help from a machine translator, this seems to say: "the first case of transvestism that was noticed in urban areas". This doesn't seem to be quite the same as the first transvestite in Brazil. Also, I don't know if transvestism can be directly connected to the modern travesti gender identity. Certainly there's a connection, but I would like a bit of a more explicit source to proclaim someone to be "the first travesti". Thoughts? Y
• In 1771, the first constitution of the Archbishop of Bahia established a punishment of a 100 cruzados fine and banishment for "cross-dressing" as a woman. The source appears to say exile was up to discretion, depending on the situation. Y
• In the second half of the 19th century, Brazilian newspapers reported sensationalized accounts of travestis. I think this might actually be an understatement, when according to the source, newspapers were basically engaging in doxing of trans people. Y

• Around 1614, the French Capuchin priest Yves d'Evreux recounted his murder of a "hermaphrodite" (now referred to as Tibira do Maranhão), who he ordered tied to a cannon and shot in front of local indigenous leaders. Murder, as a value-laden term, would need a source explicitly saying it was a murder. Y
• In 1910, in Die Transvestiten, Magnus Hirschfeld recounted the story of Dina Alma de Paradeda, a Brazilian socialite who became a popular figure in Berlin's balls and died by suicide in 1906 rather than comply with a medical assistants order to undress and undergo a medical examination. Not strictly required, but any chance of finding a secondary source on this? Y
  • I fixed the wording on the first and added details about the inquisition/colonization and added a secondary source about Hirschfeld's account. Also added some details about Pajubá. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 03:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• By the end of the 1960s and the start of the 70s the majority of travestis took hormones. It should probably specified that this was the majority of travestis in Rio.
• As a result of exclusion in the labour and housing market in Brazil and the emerging sex work industry, the majority of travestis remaining were systematically pressured into prostitution during this period; Calling it systematic is probably an original interpretation in this case; the source does suppoort that it was a result of the repression, which gets the point across just as well.
• In 1970, the dictatorship approved decree 1077, The source formats this like "1.077", does it make a difference?
• In the mid-1970s in São Paulo a systematic hunt led to the arrests of over 2,000 travestis as political prisoners. According to the source, they were treated the same as political prisoners, which I wouldn't equate with them being political prisoners.
• The name was changed to the Casa de Apoio Brenda Lee (Brenda Lee Support House) in 1986 and is still open as of 2023. The sources there are from 2013 and 2019; is there one that confirms that it's still going in 2023?
• In the 1990s, the Higher Institute of Religious Studies (ISER; Instituto Superior de Estudos da Religião) developed a HIV/AIDS prevention project that distributed supplies to sex workers. Jovanna Baby worked as a referrer for travestis in 1990 onwards. This is verified by the first source, but why is the second one there? From what I can tell, it doesn't mention ISER or Baby.
• In 2008, at the 22nd EBGLT in Brasilia, a group organized the first national meeting of transsexuals with the participation of approximately 30 national leaders. The ref doesn't seem to support this, but there's a reference error about multiple refs with the same name. Is that the reason?
• In October of 2008, the Brazilian Ministry of Health began to offer gender-affirming surgery through the Unified Health System; the requirements included 2 years of psychotherapy and the approval of local health officials. The source doesn't seem to say it was in October?
  • Addressed all of these in my last edit to the body with the exception of the 1077 case. In Portuguese "." is used as a separator for large numbers like we use "," in English so "1.077" is "1,077"/"1077" - since we translate the "Decree" I'm assuming we should also translate "1.077" to "1077" but I'm not sure. Perhaps we should add the Portuguese title of the law in parentheses to avoid confusion and aid people using the article as a starting point for research? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

    That sounds like a good idea! -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Breadth of coverage

• Focus seems good.
• As mentioned above, I'm left wanting for some context on the military dictatorship, and especially how it affected trans people so as to make them flee in the thousands. Y
• The military police, paramilitary groups, and vigilantes hunted travestis and killed them without fear of legal consequences. On February 27th, 1987, the São Paulo police launched Operation Tarantula, a program that targeted travestis for their identity; it was officially suspended on March 10 due to pressure from LGBT rights groups following the arrest of approximately 300 travestis. You're glossing over what seems like a quite major topic in only two sentences. Surely there must be more that can be said about trans people being hunted by military police, paramilitary groups and vigilantes?
  • Reading the source, that's an ok summary. Y
• Do we have any information of the outcome of DDH's work? Y

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.