Talk:Transgenerational trauma

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Untitled

Sangalang, C. C., & Vang, C. (2017). Intergenerational Trauma in Refugee Families: A Systematic Review. Journal of immigrant and minority health, 19(3), 745–754. doi:10.1007/s10903-016-0499-7

Mina Fazel, Ruth V Reed, Catherine Panter-Brick, Alan Stein, Mental health of displaced and refugee children resettled in high-income countries: risk and protective factors,The Lancet,Volume 379, Issue 9812, 2012, Pages 266-282,ISSN 0140-6736, https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(11)60051-2.

Isobel, S., Goodyear, M., & Foster, K. (2019). Psychological Trauma in the Context of Familial Relationships: A Concept Analysis. Trauma, Violence, & Abuse, 20(4), 549–559. https://doi.org/10.1177/1524838017726424

Isok Kim, & Wooksoo Kim. (2014). Post-resettlement Challenges and Mental Health of Southeast Asian Refugees in the United States. Best Practice in Mental Health, 10(2), 63–77. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com.libproxy.berkeley.edu/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=103534863&site=eds-live

^ Some useful sources Sam kwok berkeley (talk) 03:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

Isok Kim, & Wooksoo Kim. (2014). Post-resettlement Challenges and Mental Health of Southeast Asian Refugees in the United States. Best Practice in Mental Health, 10(2), 63–77. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com.libproxy.berkeley.edu/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=103534863&site=eds-live

Sangalang, C. C., Jager, J., & Harachi, T. W. (2017). Effects of maternal traumatic distress on family functioning and child mental health: An examination of Southeast Asian refugee families in the U.S. Social Science & Medicine, (C), 178. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=edsrep&AN=edsrep.a.eee.socmed.v184y2017icp178.186&site=eds-live

Isobel, S., Goodyear, M., & Foster, K. (2019). Psychological Trauma in the Context of Familial Relationships: A Concept Analysis. Trauma, Violence, & Abuse, 20(4), 549–559. https://doi.org/10.1177/1524838017726424

Sangalang, C. C., & Vang, C. (2017). Intergenerational Trauma in Refugee Families: A Systematic Review. Journal of immigrant and minority health, 19(3), 745–754. doi:10.1007/s10903-016-0499-7

^Some useful sources Sam kwok berkeley (talk) 03:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

You do realize this is classed as a BULLSHIT psychological theory, don't you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.232.169.69 (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

You may want to add a reference to Peter Sichrovsky (1989), Born Guilty: Children of Nazi Families. Basic Books, New York, p. 39."The son of a German military officer tells us: “You know, I am haunted by this wrongdoing. Guilty people always end up being punished, if not here and now, then some other time, some other place. It will get me in the end. I cannot escape. You will never know anything about me. Not a word. What they did will remain a secret. It must not be known. Their actions, or rather their transgressions, should never be spoken of anywhere. My parents will burn in hell; for them it's over. But they left me behind. Guilty at birth, guilty for life. The dreams are the worst part of it. They haunt my nights without end. Always the same dream. I know it like a film I've seen a hundred times. They drag me out of bed, lead me out of my room, lead me down the stairs, and push me into a waiting car. Men in striped uniforms. The car races across town. I hear noises outside. People shout "hurray! hurray!" They scream, they shout. […] I can't breathe, my throat is choking. I throw myself against the door, trying to open it, pounding, screaming, my eyes burning... Then I wake up.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.6.248.174 (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

No Information Under "Survivors of Childhood Abuse"

Hey everyone, I noticed that the "Survivors of Childhood Abuse" section is blank. It would be greatly appreciated if someone familiar with this topic could add content from qualified sources. Thanks! MycoMazarine (talk) 21:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I removed it. A lot of this article is very poorly cited and should be drastically trimmed. Sxologist (talk) 22:02, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Unnecessary information and lack of citations in epigenetics section

The "Epigenetic transmission" contains a long description of epigenetics without actually explaining how epigenetics applies to trauma with cited sources.

The first paragraph of that section claims: "Previous research assumed that trauma was only transmitted by the parents' child-rearing behavior. However, it may also be epigenetically transferred." but does not cite a source for this supposed epigenetic transfer. The paragraph then goes on to explain epigenetics in a broad context, and then suddenly asserts: "Therefore, one way trauma can be transferred is through epigenetics." No citation provided for this claim.

The rest of the section is plenty more informatin on epigenetics in a broad context but not on how the mechanism of epigenetics actually applies to trauma. I suspect this is because the literature on the mechanism of epigenetics and trauma is very minimal. It seems misleading to claim transgenerational trauma can be be explained by epigenetics and then proceed to explain epigenetics broadly and assert this therefore applies to trauma without any citations. SyrianCamus (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Need for a re-write

This article has changed dramatically in the last few years. It's gone from being a group/cultural problem to a largely DNA-based condition that could happen to anyone whose mother happened to be sufficiently stressed before or during pregnancy – all it takes is one bad car wreck, and the baby is at risk of transgenerational trauma. That's really not the same thing. I think most of this might have been looking for the article about Epigenetics of anxiety and stress–related disorders.

Dnllnd, I've just re-written the first two paragraphs, and I wonder whether you might be interested in improving this article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Revising Article

Hello, I am user Ferviani and for an assignment in one of my university courses, I have to choose an article to revise. For this article, I plan on adding more relevant information and writing more concisely. I also want to add better sources by using scholarly references. For more information on this revision, you can look towards the comments on my user page. Ferviani (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Medicine, Race, and Gender

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2022 and 3 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dct53, Mbh90 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: KatherineModrall, Tikomkheidze, Alc306, Lmv54.

Hello, we are users dct53 and mbh90 and we will be editing this page for one of our university courses about Medicine, Race, and Gender. We plan to add a subsection to the "Affected Groups" content about Southeast Asians. We may broaden the section about Cambodians or include research about people from other affected populations of Southeast Asia, especially after the Vietnam War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dct53 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

No information AT ALL about the Irish who suffered 800 years of repression under the English and Trans-generational Trauma

This is a glaring omission that needs to be corrected and fully researched. 800 years of Britsh rule as a colony, and it's never mentioned.I am no scientist, sociologist or anything else in the field. But I do know that the Irish diaspora need to be represented here. Please someone pick up the ball and run with it. Rezzyrez (talk) 22:04, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any sources?--Megaman en m (talk) 10:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

That'll be mostly down to the fact that this article is about the worst kind of pseudoscience generally beloved by Americans and genuine Irish would be embarrassed to be associated with it. Good luck finding sources. 2A00:23C7:228D:9901:D019:7368:2094:8F47 (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Foundations of Clinical Trauma Psychology Fall Quarter2022

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— Assignment last updated by Bbettencourt (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh dear. Embarrassing.

I stumbled across this page, and am embarrassed for Wikipedia - this is a higher density of pseudoscience than I've seen for a while on here. I guess it's inevitable, given the un-scientific nonsense that's regularly published in the mainstream media on this subject, but it's still a shame. There are some good critiques of this kind of pseudoscience by actual geneticists here: [1] , [2] , [3] Fig (talk) 19:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I heard about this during a book club. I was curious, so I looked for reputable information and found an article that raised doubts on the science. I added the content with citation under Criticism.Zeldaslink (talk) 23:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

After some thought, I added a brief sentence about scientific criticism to the lead (lede) for balance.Zeldaslink (talk) 22:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

There is more than one definition of epigenetics. In the broad definition, social environment is also a form of epigenetics, in which case we are almost stating the obvious to say that the descendants of the oppressed can inherit some of those effects of oppression. There are plenty of sociology research on that and IMO this is not something biologists are trained to study. In the narrow definition, which focuses on biochemical change on the DNA molecules or the chromosome, there are plenty of evidence that these modifications can emerge from various forms of environmental shock and they can be passed on over a couple generations. However, specifically in humans after trauma, currently there is not much evidence that these genetic modifications will have a strong effect on the descendants. The idea is not pseudoscience per se but we don't have enough evidence yet to make the claim in either direction. C9mVio9JRy (talk) 08:59, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, except there's really only one definition of epigenetics - it's a well-studied biological process that determines which section of DNA gets processed by the mRNA, and so controls what function each individual cell does in your body. It's observable through sequencing, and so claims that it can be biologically inherited from parent to child can, and have been, tested - to date, there is no conclusive evidence this has ever happened in humans (or indeed mammals, although it's common in plants and known to occur in some animals like nematodes).

In science there's a concept called the Null hypothesis, whereby the default position is that there is no effect or causal relationship, and that evidence is required for claims to the contrary to be accepted. Likewise Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with verifiability being a fundamental requirement of any claim, and so "We don't have enough evidence to make the claim in any direction" means we do have enough evidence (via the lack of it), to make the claim for the null hypothesis - in this case, that epigenetic inheritance is not a cause for transgenerational trauma, and as such we can not report that it does in this page.

Tobus (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

If you read the first two sentences in epigenetics you will see that it is defined as "stable phenotypic changes that do not involve alterations in the DNA sequence" and the word literally means "in addition to genetics". I myself have encountered biologists at conferences who said that my research in cultural evolution should be considered a form of epigenetics, though I myself prefer not to frame my research that way because I know it is confusing for people that prefer sticking to the narrow sense. I fully agree with you that, in the narrow sense, there lacks evidence for epigenetic inheritance in humans and should not be included here. At most it can only be described as a hypothetical mechanism proposed by some scholars.

There is more nuance than simply equating "null hypothesis" to "no causal effect". Although it probably doesn't make any difference here, I think the distinction is important anyway. All science theories and predictions involve inductive reasoning and generalisation from a finite amount of evidence. For example, because evolution is so well established, whenever you discover a new species, you can always assume "it's DNA and phenotypes evolve gradually" and use that assumption to build phylogeny. You don't need to prove that assumption first. Now if transgenerational epigenetic inheritance is a well-established fact in biology (I know that's a big if), one would be able to claim that it should be the null model here, even if there is no specific evidence in humans. C9mVio9JRy (talk) 15:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

If you read the source that is used to refence those opening sentences is says epigenetics is "the study of changes in gene function that are mitotically and/or meiotically heritable and that do not entail a change in DNA sequence" (emphasis mine, and I've since updated epigenetics to better match the ref). The key point here is that epigenetics is within the body's cells, not external to it like cultural/social effects. Tobus (talk) 00:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Is this discussion serious?

STEM is definitely not my field but I, and everyone, had seen genetics in high school and everyone can confirm genetics does not work like that. Genetics have no conscious, no mind at all and therefore they can not transfer information with intention to do so, evolution does not work like that unless you are Lamarckian and support the long-debunked hypothesis that can not ve confirmed, it only focuses on survivability and the mutation which can not survive gets eliminated not through rational process but irrational physical process as evolution is not a phenomena that has a mind.

Jean-Baptiste de Lamarck, whose thoughts that had been debunked for centuries

Also, collective trauma and this pseudo-biological quack does not have an correlation, "collective trauma" refers to sociological phenomena where a human group that collectively experienced a traumatic experience will be... guess what... traumatized. This is simple and does not involve any pseudo-epigenetics. Meanwhile this sociological phenomena was used to justify this "actually trauma is transmitted from mother to child during birth", just stop it because there is no way to verify this and there is no way to debunk this either therefore it is not scientific. Perhaps what you need to do is arts and/or philosophy instead of STEM, don't you think?

But let us just not look at the theory but look at examples given, shall we?

• Han (cultural): literally a textbook example of Culture-bound syndrome which is a form of Mass psychogenic illness, not a biological phenomena and can be explained with basic anthropology.
• Refugees: Holy rackamole! A foreigner in foreign country hacking nothing at all starving and freezing is feeling sad, it must be... epigenetics!
• Indigenous Australians: Yeah, Indigenous Australians feeling depressed is not because cultural crisis as result of colonization but because of... memories transferred from mother to child through epigenetic magic.
• Native/Indigenous Peoples of the Americas: Reminder that a lot of Indian Reservations still do not have access to clean water. But sure let us blame magical non-observable epigenetic phenomena that can not be seen or experimented instead of material conditions.
• Military personnel and their families: This... can not be serious. I will just ignore that.

Hey but hey look, they used laboratories apparently guys!

• Another pre-clinical study finds that the use of histone deacetylase inhibitors can aid in "exposure-based approaches in anxiety and trauma therapy." Histone deacetylase inhibitors block the deacetylation of histones, which then allows genes to remain active by preserving the active acetyl mark on the histone on the DNA. In the context of anxiety and trauma therapy, that allows the preservation of a long-term extinction memory to replace the traumatic memory. Histone deacetylase inhibited the formation of an extinction memory, which consequently preserved the fearful memory, and by inhibiting it, individuals in exposure therapy can create new memories with harmless or safe associations to their traumatic memory.

Is it me or does this reads like a bunch of make-believe? First we have to believe that psychological trauma is epigenetic then the text wants us to connect lines between the epigenetic process and trauma and then wants us to believe that "histone deacetylase inhibitors block the deacetylation of histones" process is actually related to trauma... in some way text does not want to explain. In which situation, which patient, how did it went, what are side-effects... nothing is disclosed except for that it is somehow "connected" and somehow created "happy memories". Especially after fiasco of LK-99, everyone knows not to trust the vague papers who does not want to disclose anything.

And all examples end here, without proving anything.

Look, if a Liberal Arts Major (me) can debunk your whole hypothesis... I think it is time to change career paths. It is over take my hand and I will show you the way. Cactus Ronin (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, as per WP:TALK: "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject... Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article"... if you've got concrete ideas for improving the article you are free to make changes like any editor can... but if you just want to rant, maybe start a blog?

Secondly, the second sentence of the lede clearly says "the primary modes of transmission are the uterine environment during pregnancy... and the shared family environment of the infant"... the phenomenon being discussed on this page is not genetic, it's environmental.

Tobus (talk) 01:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Cactus, your points are not wrong. Other people have raised them. If you could track down reliable sources that say it, you could work on making the page more balanced. The page suffers from an overly broad definition, and an imprecise understanding of epigenetics and an ever shifting distinction between behavior and inheritance (which is always tricky). Other terms that would be more precise: "Parent Caused Trauma" "Prenatal Trauma" "Poverty Trauma" "Economic Trauma" "Oppression Trauma" or if we are being honest about what some people want the page to be: "Patriarchal Hetero Normative White Supremacy Settler Colonialism Neo Liberal Capitalism or Zionism Trauma". DolyaIskrina (talk) 15:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

A lot of your points are correct. However, the article incorporates two ideas:

1) social transmission of alleged traumas between generations

2) Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance of trauma.

The article could be clearer about these two distinct ideas. Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance is far from proven in humans, let alone something like trauma (probably implausible), which is the point you addressed. Zenomonoz (talk) 23:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Further, there's epigenetics and there's some evidence for genetic transmissiblity of trauma. Andre🚐 23:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Neuroscience

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mpiard (article contribs). Peer reviewers: LundyLoo.

— Assignment last updated by LundyLoo (talk) 03:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Ideological bias, pseudoscientific claims

This page has multiple issues, as has been discussed in several sections above. I've added some template messages until someone more qualified than me can take a look at it.

In particular the epigenetics claims are not well sourced and seem unscientific, as do the purported treatments such as dance and music therapy. The topic in general also very vague, and it's unclear how "trauma" is defined in any non-vacuous way. (i.e. can you point to any group of humans that does not carry "intergenerational trauma"? How is "trauma" distinct from general culture?)

I'm also concerned at how many times this has been assigned as a "class project". I worry that a specific teacher or teachers may have an ideological motive and be assigning students to make edits with a particular agenda in return for class credit. KingSupernova (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak to the latter, but maybe we should start by taking a look at the dance therapy journal sources. I pulled them up to start reading them and evaluate what they say. Andre🚐 04:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps change the first sentence to: "Transgenerational trauma is a pseudo-scientific theory regarding the psychological and physiological effects that the trauma experienced by people has on subsequent generations in that group." Magnolia677 (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No, that wouldn't be accurate. Epigenetics are a real thing, scientifically - do you have a source for the opposite? To be clear, epigenetics involve the flipping of the way your body reads DNA, but does not "change" your DNA, and they are heritable somehow. It's new research.Andre🚐 11:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Epigenetics are indeed a thing, that doesn't mean that epigenetic "memories" are inherited. Zenomonoz (talk) 11:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if some conflation of sources is going on here. Intergenerational trauma redirects here but the expression refers to rather established and mainstream psychological research, see for example

• Sangalang, Cindy C.; Vang, Cindy (2017). "Intergenerational Trauma in Refugee Families: A Systematic Review". Journal of immigrant and minority health. doi:10.1007/s10903-016-0499-7. PMC 5362358.

(This review explicitly excludes all the epigenetic stuff: «We excluded studies that were (a) theoretical or conceptual in nature, in which no direct information was collected from individuals or groups; (b) based on non-refugee populations (e.g. military veterans); (c) focused on biological or epigenetic transmission of trauma; (d) based on clinical case studies or samples of n < 10; or (e) centered around trauma experiences that did not take place in the context of war or conflict».)

Perhaps it would be better to cut down the text with inadequate sources, move the article to Intergenerational trauma and then mention "transgenerational trauma" as one expression mostly linked to some pseudo-scientific strains? Nemo 06:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a lot of confusion here. Some sociological fields use the terms 'intergenerational' and 'transgenerational' trauma to refer to non-biological transmission of "trauma" to children. Other researchers then used that same term to refer to some magical biological inheritance of 'trauma' via epigenetics, which still has no basis in reality. This distinction needs to be made clear. I imagine most visitors to the page come here after reading about epigenetic inheritance, so it would be good to clarify most of this page is about theories of social transmission. Zenomonoz (talk) 01:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, just to be clear, the epigenetic mechanisms of inheritance are new science but are not magical. "Increasing evidence indicates that non-DNA sequence-based epigenetic information can be inherited across several generations in organisms ranging from yeast to plants to humans. This raises the possibility of heritable ‘epimutations’ contributing to heritable phenotypic variation and thus to evolution"[4] Andre🚐 01:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Transgenerational Trauma

Can someone please include Native American people of the US? It is wonderful to list all the different groups- and it makes me very sad to notice that by pointing out natives of Canada- the group originating in the territory that now forms the US has been excluded. 2600:1700:A7A6:A000:5487:6DB1:3769:AEB5 (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki education courses aren't accredited I can only assume

This article has a litany of issues, but the main one seems to be the blending of papers demonstrating no causative effect from epigenetic changes on stress and disorders with papers asserting these epigenetic changes being agents of stress is "proven". I'm inclined to favour the anti-Lysenkoist papers but first they need to be read. In the meantime much of the text in this article should be removed, seeing as it deals with a purportedly genetic medical condition while citing sources which do not meet WP:MEDRS. XeCyranium (talk) 03:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Trim it away! Primary source studies shouldn't be cited, especially on a topic as controversial as this. I will say, the article is confusing a couple of different things. Some of the papers on epigenetics are referring to epigenetic effects in utero and socially (which is sort of a meme social scientist interpretation of how epigenetics works), while others refer the even more ridiculous concept of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance of trauma... Zenomonoz (talk) 05:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

That is an entirely real and not ridiculous concept. 2600:4041:5244:B800:18A4:1F12:2966:381F (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Should article be deleted?

Is this page necessary? It seems to me like it could be worth deleting. 2600:8806:6502:D300:DD55:D277:371C:8F3E (talk) 23:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

transgenerational effects are mediated by epigenetic mechanisms, including changes in DNA methylation and small non-coding RNAs in the sperm

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29520039/ 2600:4041:5244:B800:18A4:1F12:2966:381F (talk) 15:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Possible to add lede about Polish people?

I remember reading either a book mentioning specific generation of Polish people born between 1920s and 1930s, grewing up under German and then Stalinist repression, theres a term for it and a whole explanation on why the generation experienced trauma but i dont know if its good enough to include Benfor445 (talk) 12:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)