Talk:Transition from Ming to Qing/Archive 1
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A few issues
Hi there. There is no detailed account of the Manchu conquest anywhere on the Wiki, so this page is a very welcome addition. Thank you to the creator of this page! Just a few points:
- Title – The title is fine as it is, so just a detail: WP:TITLEFORMAT says that common nouns shouldn't be capitalized even in wiki titles. "Conquest" on its own is a common noun, and I've never seen "Manchu Conquest" being used as a proper noun, so I think we should just stick to the lower case.
- Scope – Where should we stop? If the Manchu conquest is a war between Ming and Qing, then it shouldn't include Manchu invasions of Korea, and should stop with the Kangxi emperor's defeat of Koxinga in 1683, because Koxinga was the last nominal claimant to the Ming throne. If we move on to discuss Manchu campaigns against the Dzungars, there is no reason to stop before the Qianlong Emperor's final victory against them in 1759. Scholars usually identify 1683 as the end of the "Ming-Qing transition," so that's one more reason to end with 1683. I see that the body of the text does almost that, but the lede seems to suggest a much broader scope, so the lede and the text should be put back in sync.
- Captions – The Manchus were a complicated people. They were certainly not "steppe horsemen" like the Mongols. They were also forest people and small agriculturalists. Also, the caption to the Wu Sangui image is a bit misleading, because it jumps from "hopes to restore the Ming" to "rebellion against Kangxi Emperor" without mentioning Wu's role in the conquest itself.
There's also a lot to add, but that's normal for a work in progress. In any case, good job so far! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 01:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- >>>In 1642 Ming forces besieged Kaifeng and over 300,000 people died.>>>
- To the editor of this statement. Mind providing a source?
- >>>What really marked a change was the abolishment of Han Chinese culture>>>
- This statement needs clarification. While it may be true that the Han Chinese were forced to wear the Queue hairstyle, in what way was "Han Chinese" culture abolished? It is generally accepted that Han Chinese culture not only endured but prospered during Manchu rule. This is a fine example of an incredibly subjective statement with no clarification whatsoever; it seems as though the editor is merely expressing his opinions as he edits the article which doesn't account for objective scholarship.
- To the anonymous IP who left the above comment: some obviously wrong statements are better deleted than tagged. (And if you have an account, just login!) I just deleted the claim about the "abolishment of Han Chinese culture" and several lines of text that made no sense (see my edit summary). On close reading I realize that a lot of other statements are inaccurate and should be either clarified, improved, or deleted. What this new page most obviously needs is proper references from reliable sources! Madalibi (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Move to "Manchu conquest"
As stated above, WP:TITLEFORMAT says that common nouns should not be capitalized in titles. "Conquest" is a common noun, and as far as I know, the "Manchu conquest" has not been treated as a proper noun when used as a compound (see also this ngram. Since I can't move the page over the redirect at Manchu conquest, let me invite an admin to perform the move. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 10:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually I think the title should probably moved to "Manchu conquest of China" or so, because "Manchu conquest" itself (without saying conquest of what) is certainly not a proper noun or established academic term. Another article called Fall of the Ming Dynasty (which deals with the conquest of Ming by the Manchus) may be considered merged into this article as well. --Chinyin (talk) 04:36, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed merger
Since this isn't really discussed, except haphazardly, I would like to say that for now I don't favor merging this article with Fall of the Ming Dynasty. Well, not for now. It's not that there's not a lot of overlap, but before the conquest, the Manchus were organizing a state and the Ming were having troubles keeping theirs organized. This is a sizable article, and the Fall of the Ming article was cut from the overlong Ming Dynasty article, which means it has potential for growth. Which isn't to say we shouldn't revisit the issue in the future if Fall of the Ming remains as it is, because right now there is substantial overlap. But there's no rush. --Quintucket (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Good. Let's leave the section of discussion for now, and see if there is necessity to do the merge in the future. --Chinyin (talk) 00:57, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Sources
http://www.jstor.org/stable/29737987
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nn_61ts-hQwC&pg=PA78#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.enotes.com/china-text/chapter-ix---manchu-conquest-china
Rajmaan (talk) 19:09, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
A Short History of China: Being an Account for the General Reader of an ... By Demetrius Charles de Kavanagh Boulger
http://books.google.com/books?id=wlg_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=gAIcwz3V_JsC&pg=PA180#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=QXHbhsfaJAYC&pg=PA148&dq=To+win+the+support+and+cooperation+of+Ming+generals+in+Liaodong,+Nurhaci+gave+them+Aisin+Gioro+women+as+wives.+In+1618,+before+he+attacked+Fushun+city,+he+promised+the+Ming+general+defending+the+city+a+woman+from+the+Aisin+Gioro+clan&hl=en&ei=O-ChToi7Jsn20gHW4ayvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=To%20win%20the%20support%20and%20cooperation%20of%20Ming%20generals%20in%20Liaodong%2C%20Nurhaci%20gave%20them%20Aisin%20Gioro%20women%20as%20wives.%20In%201618%2C%20before%20he%20attacked%20Fushun%20city%2C%20he%20promised%20the%20Ming%20general%20defending%20the%20city%20a%20woman%20from%20the%20Aisin%20Gioro%20clan&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=QXHbhsfaJAYC&pg=PA148&dq=To+win+the+support+and+cooperation+of+Ming+generals+in+Liaodong,+Nurhaci+gave+them+Aisin+Gioro+women+as+wives.+In+1618,+before+he+attacked+Fushun+city,+he+promised+the+Ming+general+defending+the+city+a+woman+from+the+Aisin+Gioro+clan&hl=en&ei=O-ChToi7Jsn20gHW4ayvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwA#v=onepage&q=To%20win%20the%20support%20and%20cooperation%20of%20Ming%20generals%20in%20Liaodong%2C%20Nurhaci%20gave%20them%20Aisin%20Gioro%20women%20as%20wives.%20In%201618%2C%20before%20he%20attacked%20Fushun%20city%2C%20he%20promised%20the%20Ming%20general%20defending%20the%20city%20a%20woman%20from%20the%20Aisin%20Gioro%20clan&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ORBmFSFcJKoC&pg=PA79&dq=Li+was+made+a+banner+general,+was+given+gifts+of+slaves+and+serfs,+and+was+betrothed+to+a+young+woman+of+the+Aisin+Gioro+clan.+Although+Li's+surrender+at+the+time+was+exceptional,+his+integration+into+the+Manchu+elite+was+only+the+first&hl=en&ei=WuGhTtyJO6Lx0gHC16WfBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Li%20was%20made%20a%20banner%20general%2C%20was%20given%20gifts%20of%20slaves%20and%20serfs%2C%20and%20was%20betrothed%20to%20a%20young%20woman%20of%20the%20Aisin%20Gioro%20clan.%20Although%20Li's%20surrender%20at%20the%20time%20was%20exceptional%2C%20his%20integration%20into%20the%20Manchu%20elite%20was%20only%20the%20first&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=ORBmFSFcJKoC&pg=PA79&dq=Li+was+made+a+banner+general,+was+given+gifts+of+slaves+and+serfs,+and+was+betrothed+to+a+young+woman+of+the+Aisin+Gioro+clan.+Although+Li#v=onepage&q=Li%20was%20made%20a%20banner%20general%2C%20was%20given%20gifts%20of%20slaves%20and%20serfs%2C%20and%20was%20betrothed%20to%20a%20young%20woman%20of%20the%20Aisin%20Gioro%20clan.%20Although%20Li&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=g-xBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA132#v=onepage&q&f=false
References
- ^ Gowen, Herbert Henry (1913). From the Manchu conquest to the recognition of the republic, A. D. 1913. Vol. Volume 2 of An Outline History of China. Sherman, French & Company. ISBN 0313359202. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Williams, F. W. (1910–1919). "The Manchu Conquest of China". The Journal of Race Development. Vols. 1-9 (2): 152–167. doi:10.2307/29737987. ISSN 1068-3380. JSTOR 29737987.
{{cite journal}}:|volume=has extra text (help)CS1 maint: date format (link) - ^ Nolan, Cathal J. (2008). Wars of the Age of Louis Xiv, 1650-1715. ABC-CLIO. p. 78. ISBN 978-0313359200. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ BOULGER, D. C. (April 28, 1893). "Chapter IX - The Manchu Conquest Of China". China. pp. 60–130. Archived from the original on 23 July 2009. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
{{cite book}}:|archive-date=/|archive-url=timestamp mismatch; 24 June 2009 suggested (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
chinese language accounts of the Milayin rebellion
Title 洋縣(陝西)志: 8卷 洋縣(陝西)志: 8卷, 洋縣(陝西)志: 8卷 Author 張鵬翼 Published 1898 Original from Harvard University Digitized Aug 22, 2008
Title 皇朝藩部要略: 18卷 : 拊表 : 4卷 皇朝藩部要略: 18卷 : 拊表 : 4卷, 祁韻士 Volumes 1-8 of Huang chao fan bu yao lue, Yunshi Qi Author 祁韻士 Publisher 浙江書局, 1884 Original from Harvard University Digitized Aug 15, 2008 Subjects Inner Mongolia (China) Mongolia Tibet (China) Tibet Autonomous Region (China) Xinjiang Uygur Zizhiqu (China)
Rajmaan (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
References
- ^ 張鵬翼 (1898). 洋縣(陝西)志: 8卷. p. 140. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ 祁韻士 (1884). 皇朝藩部要略: 18卷 : 拊表 : 4卷, Volumes 1-8. Vol. Volumes 1-8 of Huang chao fan bu yao lue, Yunshi Qi. 浙江書局. p. 50. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help)
Muslim pro ming rebellion against qing during the conquest
A pro ming rebellion lead by muslims against the qing in northwest china
http://books.google.com/books?id=ciShtCrJijIC&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false
Purblio (talk) 06:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the sources, Purblio! Note, though, that the first and third ones seem to be the same. This Muslim rebellion, which was led by Ding Guodong 丁國棟 and Milayin 米喇印, is already discussed in the section called "The northwest." You're of course welcome to add material to what we already have. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 00:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=7D8QAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA329#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA298#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=ciShtCrJijIC&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=MC6sAAAAIAAJ&q=Ming+restorationist#v=onepage&q=Mi%20la%20yin&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=riPEes0xs-YC&pg=PA410&dq=Ming+restorationist+mi-la-yin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aD2fUMPGINKB0AGdj4GgAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=riPEes0xs-YC&pg=PA410&dq=Ming+restoration+mi-la-yin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qD2fUPfWLcXZ0QH18YGwCw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
References
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- ^ Millward, James A. (1998). Beyond the Pass: Economy, Ethnicity, and Empire in Qing Central Asia, 1759-1864 (illustrated ed.). Stanford University Press. p. 298. ISBN 0804729336. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ Ross, John (1891). The Manchus; Or, The Reigning Dynasty of China: Their Rise and Progress ... Paternoster Row. p. 329. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ Lipman, Jonathan Neaman (1998). Familiar strangers: a history of Muslims in Northwest China. University of Washington Press. p. 54. ISBN 0295800550. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ WAKEMAN JR., FREDERIC (1986). GREAT ENTERPRISE. University of California Press. p. 799. ISBN 0520048040. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ WAKEMAN JR., FREDERIC (1986). GREAT ENTERPRISE. University of California Press. p. 803. ISBN 0520048040. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ Spence, Jonathan D.; Wills, Jr., John E., eds. (1979). From Ming to Ch'ing: Conquest, Region, and Continuity in Seventeenth-century China (illustrated, revised ed.). Yale University Press. p. 410. ISBN 0300026722. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ American Council of Learned Societies. Committee on Studies of Chinese Civilization; Los Angeles (Calif.) University of Southern California (1974). From Ming to Chʻing, state, region and individual in a period of conquest: a conference [held at] Palm Springs, Calif., Nov. 28-Dec. 2, 1974, Volume 1. Dept. of History, University of Southern California. p. 31. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
- ^ Spence, Jonathan D.; Wills, Jr., John E., eds. (1979). From Ming to Ch'ing: Conquest, Region, and Continuity in Seventeenth-century China (illustrated, revised ed.). Yale University Press. p. 191. ISBN 0300026722. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
create article on Nikan Wailan
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Rajmaan (talk) 15:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
References
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{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Hannah, Ian Campbell (19??). Eastern Asia: A History. Frederick A. Stokes Company. p. 175. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}: Check date values in:|year=(help)CS1 maint: year (link) - ^ 陳捷先; Sechin Jagchid, eds. (1969). 第三屆東亜阿爾泰學會會議記錄. Taiwan University. p. 63. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Lui, Adam Yuen-chung (1989). Two rulers in one reign: Dorgon and Shun-chih, 1644-1660. Vol. Volume 13 of Faculty of Asian Studies monographs (illustrated ed.). Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University. p. 2. ISBN 0731506545. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Dai 11kai Kokusai Rekishigaku Kaigi Eno Hōkokusho: Nihon Ni Okeru Rekishigaku No Hattatsu to Genjō. Contributors Rekishigaku Nihon Kokunai Iinkai, Nihon Gakujutsu Shinkōkai. Nihon Gakujutsu Shinkōkai. 1960. p. 340. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link) - ^ Pang, Tatiana A.; Stary, Giovanni (1998). New light on Manchu historiography and literature: the discovery of three documents in old Manchu script. Contributor Tatiana A. Pang. Harrassowitz in K. p. 10. ISBN 3447040564. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
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- ^ Julius von Klaproth (1824). Mémoires relatifs a l'Asie: contenant des recherches historiques, géographiques et philologiques sur les peuples de l'Orient (in French). Dondey-Dupré père et fils. p. 447. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Julius von Klaproth (1824). Mémoires relatifs à l'Asie... (in French). Dondey-Dupré. p. 447. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Klaproth, Heinrich Julius (1822). Verzeichniss der chinesischen und mandshuischen Bücher und Handschriften der K. Bibliothek zu Berlin (in German). PARIS: IN DER KÖNIGLICHEN DRUCKEREL. p. 66. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Plath, Johann Heinrich (1830). Geschichte des östlichen Asiens: Die völker der Manschurey. bd. 1-2 (in German). Vol. Volume 1 of Geschichte des östlichen Asiens. in der Dieterichschen Buchhandlung. p. 232. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Plath, Johann Heinrich (1830). Die völker der Mandschurey, Volume 1 (in German). Göttingen: in der Dieterichschen Buchhandlung. p. 232. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Julius von Klaproth (1814). Reise in den Kaukasus und nach Georgien: Unternommen in den Jahren 1807 und 1808, auf Veranstaltung der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu St. Petersburg. Enthaltend eine vollstandige Beschreibung der kaukasischen Länder und ihrer Bewohner (in German). Vol. Volume 2 of Reise in den Kaukasus und nach Georgien: Unternommen in den Jahren 1807 und 1808, auf Veranstaltung der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften zu St. Petersburg. Enthaltend eine vollstandige Beschreibung der kaukasischen Länder und ihrer Bewohner. Halle und Berlin: in den Buchhandlungen des Hallischen Waisenhause. p. 556. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Klaproth, Heinrich Julius (1812). Abhandlung über die Sprache und Schrift der Uiguren (in German). Berlin. p. 76. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Royal Russian Society at Beijing (1858). Arbeiten der Kaiserlich Russischen Gesandtschaft zu Peking (in German). F. Heinicke. p. 25. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Abel, Carl (1858). Arbeiten der Kaiserlich Russischen Gesandtschaft zu Peking über China, sein Volk, seine Religion, seine Institutionen, socialen Verhältnisse etc: Von den Mitgliedern der ständigen, geistlichen Mission in Peking siehe Vorwort Aus dem Russischen nach dem in St. Petersburg 1852-57 ..., Volume 2 (in German). F. Heinicke. p. 25. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Das Ausland: Wochenschrift für Länder- u. Völkerkunde, Volume 26 (in German). Stuttgart und Lubingenund: Verlag der J.G. Cotta'schen Buchhandlung. 1853. p. 1172. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
- ^ Gimm, Martin (1993). Kaiser Qianlong (1711-1799) als Poet (in German). Vol. Volume 15 of Sinologica Coloniensia. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. p. 215. ISBN 3515058818. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Schorkowitz, Dittmar (1995). Schorkowitz, Dittmar (ed.). Ethnohistorische Wege und Lehrhahre eines Philosophen: Festschrift für Lawrence Krader zum 75. Geburtstag ; mit einem Vorwort und einem Schriftenverzeichnis (in German). Vol. Volume 15 of Sinologica Coloniensia. Contributor Lawrence Krader (illustrated ed.). P. Lang. p. 259. ISBN 3631463456. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help) - ^ Huang-chʻing-kʻai-kuo fang-lüeh: Die Gründung des mandschurischen Kaiserreiches (in German). Translated by Erich Hauer. W. de Gruyter. 1926. p. 6. ISBN 9783111145754. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link) - ^ Ostasiatische Zeitschrift, Volumes 9-10 (in German). Contributor Gesellschaft für Ostasiatische Kunst (Germany). Oesterheld & Company. 1922. p. 241. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)
Conquest notion and objectivity
I don't like the word "conquest" in the title. As you can read from the article, the Manchus were invited into China by a Ming general after he heard that the emperor commited suicide. Depending on how you see it, one could say that the Manchus did not conquer China like the Mongols conquered the Jin dynasty because they were invited to take control. After the Qing dynasty was established, the subsequent wars against Chinese generals in the south was waged by using Manchu and Chinese soldiers and could be interpreted as crushing down rebellion. Besides the Qing dynasty was a legitimite succession of the Ming dynasty. I do understand people, who would call it "conquest". But I'm trying to say: you cannot objectively name it "conquest" for sure. If no one objects, I will adapt the title and text accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Habahaba1234 (talk • contribs) 22:44, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- What you have said is a kind of viewpoint in Manchu and Qing studies, so I understand your points. However, you cannot just change it since "conquest" can be widely seen in many books of Manchu studies which can be found in either English and Chinese sources. For example, in The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China page 39, it says "Qing conquest". So, I would like to see some discussion and please stop changing it again when discussion is not over.--Šolon (talk) 01:43, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hi there! I would agree with Šolon, here. Almost the entire field of Qing studies in English speaks either of the Manchu conquest or the Qing conquest, or of longer phrases like the "conquest of China by the Manchus." A Google search for the exact phrase "Manchu conquest" yields 13,900 results. "Qing conquest" gives 5,080 results. "Ch'ing conquest" gets picked up 2,550 times. I'm not sure what expressions to compare these with, but "Qing unification" gets 8 yields, "Qing reunification" only one, and the 8 of 9 results for "Manchu unification" are about the unification of Manchu tribes under the leadership of the Aisin Gioro clan before 1644.
- Therefore it seems the overwhelming majority of the field of Qing studies is using the term "conquest," including all the major western historians of China who have their own wiki, like Frederic Wakeman, Pamela Kyle Crossley, Mark Elliott, and Frederick Mote. Since WP:NAMINGCRITERIA starts by saying that "Article titles are based on what reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject by," I think we need to stick with "conquest" here! Personally I think "Qing conquest" is more accurate than "Manchu conquest" (because the Qing elite was made of Manchus, Mongols, and Han-Chinese Bannermen, not just Manchus), but that's a different discussion. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 02:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Western scholars usually use the word "conquest", but in mainland China, in order to unite all ethnicites, Chinese scholars like to describe all kinds of wars among different ethnicities a civil war, such as the ones between Han-Xiongnu, Song-Kihtan, Song-Mongol, Ming-Qing. So it's okay to say the war of Ming-Qing is not a "foreign conquest" this way. However, just like what Madalibi have said, you have to fit the WP rule.--Šolon (talk) 00:17, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Chinese scholarship does that, in part to promote harmony between ethnicities, but also for a territorial purpose: seeing all these wars as "internal contradictions" suggests that China has always been this big, and that all conflicts in its history just aimed for the reunification of China. But this is not good enough reason to state (as if it were an established fact) that the Ming-Qing war was not a "foreign conquest." We can certainly mention this point of view, but we need to attribute it explicitly to whoever is upholding it. Also, I don't think Western scholars insist on the term "foreign" when they talk about the Manchu conquest, so we shouldn't insist on it either. Maybe a section on historiographical views would be needed? Madalibi (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I am not quite sure what we should do. It seems difficult to add information like that. If we want to talk about what Chinese scholars think in this article, technically, we would have to create sections of Chinese scholars' "cival war" viewpoints in all kinds of wars between ethnicites in China. That's just so much work to do.--Šolon (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Eventually, someone has to do it to ensure objectivity. --Habahaba1234 (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we can make a clear conclusion here while the problem is still debating in the field of Manchu and Qing studies, but I agree to let the people who read this article know there is an argument.--Šolon (talk) 01:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- Eventually, someone has to do it to ensure objectivity. --Habahaba1234 (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I am not quite sure what we should do. It seems difficult to add information like that. If we want to talk about what Chinese scholars think in this article, technically, we would have to create sections of Chinese scholars' "cival war" viewpoints in all kinds of wars between ethnicites in China. That's just so much work to do.--Šolon (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Chinese scholarship does that, in part to promote harmony between ethnicities, but also for a territorial purpose: seeing all these wars as "internal contradictions" suggests that China has always been this big, and that all conflicts in its history just aimed for the reunification of China. But this is not good enough reason to state (as if it were an established fact) that the Ming-Qing war was not a "foreign conquest." We can certainly mention this point of view, but we need to attribute it explicitly to whoever is upholding it. Also, I don't think Western scholars insist on the term "foreign" when they talk about the Manchu conquest, so we shouldn't insist on it either. Maybe a section on historiographical views would be needed? Madalibi (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Western scholars usually use the word "conquest", but in mainland China, in order to unite all ethnicites, Chinese scholars like to describe all kinds of wars among different ethnicities a civil war, such as the ones between Han-Xiongnu, Song-Kihtan, Song-Mongol, Ming-Qing. So it's okay to say the war of Ming-Qing is not a "foreign conquest" this way. However, just like what Madalibi have said, you have to fit the WP rule.--Šolon (talk) 00:17, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Quote: "So, I would like to see some discussion and please stop changing it again when discussion is not over." I have not changed anything in this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Habahaba1234 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- I meant the article "Manchu people". Thanks for your cooperation.--Šolon (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- We should at least donate one sentence somewhere that says something like: "The question if the Manchu conquest should be categorized as a foreign invasion or a civil war is not further discussed here." --Habahaba1234 (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Instead of writing a long section presenting the historiographical arguments in detail, we could just say in the lede that leading western scholars speak of this as a conquest (hence the title), but that Chinese historians tend to view it as a civil war for the control of China. The good thing is that the events themselves are not in question. What I mean is that we can recount the rise of the Manchus, late Ming uprisings, the Battle of Shanhai Pass, the Qing seizure of the Mandate of Heaven, the Southern Ming, and the Three Feudatories without constantly explaining whether or not they were a conquest. Madalibi (talk) 03:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- Madalibi, the Jianzhou Jurchens under the chieftain's of Nurhaci's clan, the Gioro, were direct vassals to the Ming dynasty. It would not be incorrect to say that the Chinese scholarship to say that the jurchen were under Ming sovereignty and that it was a rebellion or civil war, since Nurhaci was a Ming vassal one day, taking orders from Ming officers and then rebelling the next day due to the incident where his father and grandfather were accidently killed by the Ming. To say that Chinese scholars are incorrectly trying to promote irridentism is innacurate since in this case they are correct. It is not like the Mongol conquest of China where the mongols under Genghis never acknowledged Song lordship or sovereignty over them.Rajmaan (talk) 05:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Rajmaan. I won't get into a long discussion of this topic unless it can improve the page, and that would mean discussing reliable sources rather than my personal view. But just to clarify, there is no irredentism involved here, since the northeastern provinces (so-called "Manchuria") clearly belong to China today. It's just that China today is not the same as it was in 1644. "China" was also not the same in 1644 and 1750 or 1850, for that matter, but I'm getting off-topic. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 00:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- Madalibi, the Jianzhou Jurchens under the chieftain's of Nurhaci's clan, the Gioro, were direct vassals to the Ming dynasty. It would not be incorrect to say that the Chinese scholarship to say that the jurchen were under Ming sovereignty and that it was a rebellion or civil war, since Nurhaci was a Ming vassal one day, taking orders from Ming officers and then rebelling the next day due to the incident where his father and grandfather were accidently killed by the Ming. To say that Chinese scholars are incorrectly trying to promote irridentism is innacurate since in this case they are correct. It is not like the Mongol conquest of China where the mongols under Genghis never acknowledged Song lordship or sovereignty over them.Rajmaan (talk) 05:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
The Muslim's Loyal Trio
"The Muslim's Loyal Trio" are the tombs of Ming loyalist Muslims who were martyred while fighting in battle against the Qing in Guangzhou.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vWLRxJEU49EC&pg=PA306#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rajmaan (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
References
- ^ Ring, Trudy; Salkin, Robert M.; La Boda, Sharon, eds. (1996). International Dictionary of Historic Places: Asia and Oceania. Vol. Volume 5 of International Dictionary of Historic Places (illustrated, annotated ed.). Taylor & Francis. p. 306. ISBN 1884964044. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
{{cite book}}:|volume=has extra text (help)
Qing vs rebels in Jiangxi and Huguang
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Qing_conquest_of_South_Ming_territories.svg
Rajmaan (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
References
- ^ Struve, Lynn A. (1998). The Ming-Qing conflict, 1619-1683: a historiography and source guide (illustrated ed.). Published by the Association for Asian Studies. p. 289. ISBN 0924304375. Archived from the original (PDF) on Jan 7, 2011. Retrieved 24 April 2014.
Yale University Assistant Professor F. W. Williams
Southern Ming defectors
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Annoying Timeline
Hi halfway through this article someone has added a 'Qing timeline' which is great but the format messes up the nearby text and spoils the page layout. Does anyone know how to fix this so the timeline sits in the right and the text sits in the normal position? Thanks Mccapra (talk) 16:58, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Cut material
I've cut the material below out of the article because it is about the Qing dynasty in general and not about the conquest of the Ming. Other editors may want to use some of it in other articles.Mccapra (talk) 05:21, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The Kangxi Emperor used the Zheng family's knowledge of sea warfare to seize the town of Albazin on the Amur River from Russia in 1685, giving the Manchus control of all the area south of the river. By 1689, a peace treaty (Treaty of Nerchinsk) had been successfully signed between the Qing and the Russian court, which would last for about two centuries.
Finally, the Kangxi Emperor reinforced the Manchu-dominated Manchu-Mongol alliance relationship [1] between Manchu and Khalkha Mongols and defeated the challenge to his legitimacy as Mongol Great Khan[2] by Dzungar Tribe from Oirats Mongols. The war was started by the prince of the Dzungar tribe attacking Khalkha Mongols princes with the intention to conquer Khalkha Mongols and possibly to further proclaim him as the Great Khan over Mongolian tribes. Kangxi Emperor, as the Chinese Emperor and also the Great Khan of Mongols (ᠪᠣᠭᠳᠠ
ᠬᠠᠭᠠᠨ，Богд хаан)，led 80,000 armies himself and marched south of Ulaanbaatar to engage the Dzungars. In a brief engagement, the Dzungars armies were pounded by cannon fire and routed. Galdan died one year later.Through the final victory over Dzungars and Galdan's descendants, Kangxi Emperor proclaimed Manchu Royal House as the legitimate ruler over Oriats Mongols tribes and their lands.
The Qing's series of victories over Oirats Mongols Tribes and Khanates completed the Kangxi Emperor's northern expedition. Before the emperor's death in 1722, he expanded and stabilized the territorial boundaries of his empire to cover all the previous Oirats Mongols' khannates including Tibet(territory of Khoshut Khanate). His successors further campaigned and defeated several rebellions of other non-Mongolian tribes in Qinghai and Xinjiang. By the end of the 18th century, the Qing dynasty had reached its largest territorial extent, considered one of the largest empires ever in history. In addition, many neighboring countries, such as Korea and Vietnam, were listed as its tributary states.
In 1725 the Yongzheng Emperor bestowed the hereditary title of Hou (侯, the 2nd rank hereditary title for all non-royal family noblemen, and at a similar rank as "Marquis" in European hereditary titles) on a descendant of the Ming dynasty Imperial family, Zhu Zhiliang, who received a salary from the Qing government and whose duty was to perform rituals at the Ming tombs, and was also inducted the Chinese Plain White Banner in the Eight Banners. Later the Qianlong Emperor bestowed the title Marquis of Extended Grace posthumously on Zhu Zhuliang in 1750, and the title passed on through twelve generations of Ming descendants until the end of the Qing dynasty.
The Qing dynasty had weakened by European Colonialism and imperialism, as well as the new threat of rising Japan, after the mid-19th century, with which stimulates the growth of Anti-Qing sentiment among the populace. The populace blame Qing government for having inhibited Chinese industrialization, causing it to fall severely behind the West and being increasingly colonized. The Revolutionists (mainly of Han ethnicity) started to grow and organized overseas (in Indonesia, Japan and Los Angels in U.S, where Chinese immigrants or overseas students centered), and among whom they are increasingly fueled by Qing conquest theory invented by Japan historians, although this idea is strongly politically-oriented and served as the theoretical foundation for Japan's Continental Policy. The Wuchang Uprising of 1911 overthrew the Qing, and Puyi, the last reigning Manchu emperor, officially abdicated the following year. The new Chinese Republic was also established in the same year, ending the over two thousand years of imperial rule in Chinese history. In Guangzhou, the national monuments known as "The Muslim's Loyal Trio" are the tombs of Qing loyalist Muslims who were martyred while fighting in battle against the Republic of China in Guangzhou.[3]
References
- ^ Started during he Jerchen-Manchu royal family maintains historical and continual marriages with Khalkha and Oriats Mongols as a tradition to maintain the Manchu-Mongol united-body.
- ^ In 1635 February, Ejei Khan, the last Mongol Empire Genghis Khan, engaged with Jerchen(the later "Manchu") Emperor and Borgdaah Khan(Богд хаан) Hong Taiji's troops and finally surrendered to Dorgon. Along with his surrendering, the Borjigin House lost the title "Genghis Khan([Чингис хаан, Çingis hán] Error: {{Langx}}: text has italic markup (help))" to Jerchen ruler Aisin Gioro House. Ejei Khan was bestowed the hereditary title of Heshuo QinwangManchu: ᡥᠣᡧᠣ ᡳ
ᠴᡳᠨ
ᠸᠠᠩ, Möllendorff: hošo i cin wang, Abkai: hoxo-i qin wang and was awarded an arranged-marriage with Manchu Princess (Manchu: ᡤᡠᡵᡠᠨ ᡳ
ᡤᡠᠩᠵᡠ, Möllendorff: gurun i gungju, Abkai: gurun-i gungju).《内阁蒙古堂档簿》，目录号：321/2—150/48—2，中国第一历史档案馆藏，第77页。 - ^ Ring & Salkin & La Boda 1996, p. 306.
Requested move 6 December 2017
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by page mover) SkyWarrior 17:27, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Qing conquest of the Ming → Transition from Ming to Qing – I'm proposing a similar title to Transition from Sui to Tang. The current title is historically inaccurate for many reasons. The Ming dynasty officially ended on 25 April 1644 when the Chongzhen Emperor killed himself, but his suicide was a direct result of agrarian rebels under Li Zicheng (Shun dynasty) reaching Beijing. The current title is misleading for suggesting that the Qing dynasty destroyed the Ming dynasty, when in fact this is only half-true. Most of the article actually talks about the Qing dynasty after 1644 as they battled the Shun rebels (e.g. Battle of Shanhai Pass); warlords that should not be considered "Ming" in any way (i.e. Revolt of the Three Feudatories); as well as Southern Ming/Kingdom of Tungning troops which claimed to be Ming loyalists but are historically not considered part of The Ming dynasty. The article does talk about (briefly) some of the battles from 1619–1644, but the Qing dynasty was not established until 1636: prior to that year the Manchu state was the Later Jin (1616–1636). Timmyshin (talk) 23:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- Support per nom and my reading of relevant western sources, who also use the similar phrase Ming–Qing transition. The current article title would either limit the scope of the article or be grossly inaccurate, as argued above. _dk (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
- Support Ming–Qing transition. Nominator makes a strong argument, and the variant mentioned by Underbar dk is more concise. -Zanhe (talk) 17:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.