Talk:Transmisogyny

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Contested deletion

User:Yworo has been incredibly hostile. I created this article earlier this morning, and since then I've been constantly adding to it. They are acting like the article should have been 30 pages long *right from the start*. Of course it isn't absolutely comprehensive *right now*. It's only a couple of hours old. Alyxr (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The topic is already covered in the article, transphobia. Alyxr has not discussed duplicating/splitting content from transphobia on Talk:Transphobia. This should be discussed there and a consensus formed about it before proceeding, which Alyxr apparently refuses to do. I have no objection to the article being drafted as a Userspace draft, but I expect that would be a waste of time without getting proper consensus first. Yworo (talk) 22:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It's barely covered. Transphobia only gives a defintion. That's not "coverage". It's mentioning. Whipping Girl also "covers" transmisogyny by your criteria. Why shouldn't it be dealt with on Whipping Girl then? Maybe because it's a seperate topic with a seperate defintion and with seperate things to be written about it? Alyxr (talk) 23:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but I'm of the conservative opinion that the article title should somewhat reflect the article topic. Expanding the transmisogyny definition in transphobia would turn the transphobia article into an article on transmisognyny. "Transmisogyny" requires more than just a definition. There's so much to cover. If I moved what's on this page now I'd get people telling me to move the transmisogyny bits it to it's own article. Alyxr (talk) 23:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Stop being so disruptive. If you want something useful to do, help me continue to improve the article. Alyxr (talk) 23:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Bull. You essentially are (and would have to) duplicate existing material about discrimination already present at Transphobia#Harassment_and_violence, Transphobia#In_feminism, and Trans_woman#Discrimination. All I am asking you to do is to get consensus at the existing article. Forcefully forging ahead tells me you know full well you will not get such consensus. Otherwise, you'd bring it up for discussion. There is no deadline. Please proceed in a collaborative manner. Yworo (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

10 years and the post still stands... must have been a real non-issue you were fighting over. 199.168.95.209 (talk) 19:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

slurs

""Tranny" and "shemale", the two most common transphobic slurs, are reserved for trans women." no they're not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.18.97 (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Transmisandry

While the term is used far less, it's still a problem. I'd say that the only problems would be actually finding sources for it, but someone skilled enough could locate some. It may not warrant its own page, but it certainly deserves a sizable section on the Transphobia page. Or the Misandry page. Or both. 69.49.78.232 (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree 100% (Atlantic Ranter 9705 (talk) 16:55, 29 November 2018 (UTC))

Adding onto this, I'm the person behind the page discrimination against transgender men (transandrophobia/transmisandry) - so if any folks reading this want to help contribute to this sibling concept it's greatly appreciated! Vulture (a.k.a. Transandrosupport) (talk) 16:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Needs citation

I've removed the following from the introduction of this article, as it lacks any sources:

The term "transmisogynoir" was created to refer to the intersection between transmisogyny and misogynoir, meaning the oppression of black trans women. In it, it composes transphobia, misogyny, and antiblackness. It was coined by Trudy of Gradient Lair, a womanist blog about Black women and art, media, social media, socio-politics and culture.

-- The Anome (talk) 11:50, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Truncated or run-on sentences

It's not clear exactly what happened here or what the original intent was, but this needs a fix:

When Julia Serano touches on transitioning, According to the National Center for Transgender equality (2011), describes transitioning as, “The time when a person begins to living as the gender with which they identify rather than the gender they were assigned at birth, which often includes changing one’s first name and dressing and grooming differently.

Seems like two or even three sentences maybe got merged into each other. This is from the #Sexual harassment section. Savmkim-10, this looks like it was your edit, can you please fix this?

(While you're at it, please change to straight quotes, not curly.) Mathglot (talk) 21:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@Savmkim-10:, I haven't been able to determine a meaning for this content (or a source, which would help us determine the meaning) so I've removed it from the article. If you know the intent, please revert my last article edit and fix it accordingly. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 02:10, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Oxford's definition

It's of course false that Oxford doesn't define it. Definition of transmisogyny in US English: transmisogyny NOUN Dislike of or prejudice against transgender women.[1] Doug Weller talk 19:07, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

WP:ALLEGED concerns

In edits like this one, Valkyrie Cain is adding the text "what she saw as" to a sentence. This appears to be WP:ALLEGED to me. Per WP:STATUSQUO, [[WP:BRD}], and all that, I'd like to discuss it. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Regardless it needs to change because it is not neutral to leave it as it is.Valkyrie Cain (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Valkyrie Cain: Why is it not neutral? We make it clear it's her view by quoting from her directly. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:28, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

"The term was coined by Julia Serano in her 2007 book Whipping Girl and used to describe the unique discrimination faced by trans women"

This is basically stating Serano's view is a fact.Valkyrie Cain (talk) 20:30, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

WP:CLAIM

Hi, @Newimpartial: I saw that you reverted my claim -> say edit here with the edit summary Let's stick to sourced wording, please. What do you mean? The source is a particular radical feminist criticising the concept of transmisogyny. Following WP:CLAIM, I almost always change instances of "claimed" to "said" or "stated" wherever I come across them. Cheers, gnu57 15:05, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

You are right, of course; for some reason I thought a secondary source was being used. While so think it would be more neutral to find a secondary source reporting the claim in question, a quick search does not reveal any to me (because critics are less likely to engage with the provocative paragraph on p.8 than with other parts of the book). This is a case where write/comments would read more naturally to me than say/stated, if we are stuck with the primary source. Newimpartial (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

"Traps Are Gay" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Traps Are Gay. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Restructuring Ideas

I have some ideas about restructuring parts of the article. For organizational purposes, I think the information under Relation to Patriarchy could go with the information at the very beginning of the article. I'd also like to add a large section, "Types," with the following transmisogyny subtypes:

violence; sexualization and harassment; media (mis)representation; employment discrimination; healthcare; justice system

This section could be followed by Instances. I would also like to expand instances to include other countries and more detailed statistics for the U.S. and Ecuador, although I have only found info for the United States and Canada so far.

I have laid out more information on my User page. --MBJAnderson (talk) 03:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Paraphrasing Quotes

I am changing some quotes to paraphrase findings since it's better Wikipedia form. If someone feels like important information is lost, please let me know.--MBJAnderson (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Merging the "Instances" section

As it stands, this article's "Instances" section is better suited to Trans woman#Discrimination. There's no discussion on how sexism and transphobia intersect to form transmisogyny. In fact, it goes on to say that it is mostly experienced by specifically Black trans women, with no justification why their femininity and transness are still the key factors - a common criticism of the concept presented in one of the sources already in the article. --Equivamp - talk 05:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. Instances of transmisogyny should be cases of discrimination against transgender women that is worse than or different to the discrimination that either transgender men or cisgender women face. There are hints of this in the section, with the comparisons to trans men: trans women, on average, lose almost one third of their salary ... trans men often experience salary raises and greater authority in the workplace and trans people experience a disproportionately large number of hate crimes, with trans women experiencing the majority of these crimes. Rewriting, trimming parts, expanding parts and adding analysis could improve the section, but I think it does fit here. — Bilorv (talk) 18:19, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

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Disputed concept

The concept of Transmisogyny is disputed by gender critical activists and radical feminists, for example Sheila Jeffreys who writes that "misogyny is redefined by transgender activists so that it means disparagement of the femininity that is attractive to cross-dressers" and "transgender ideology is full of such reversals, in which the material reality of biological and existential womanhood is usurped by men who fantasise about being women."

I tried to add this to the article but it was reverted and dismissed by various editors, who presumably don't like it being pointed out that this is a controversial concept amongst feminists.

Let's work towards adding this to the article in a way that satisfies neutral point of view. As at the moment, the article is entirely one-sided. 2A00:23EE:15C8:8B77:B446:8C15:E1F0:39B3 (talk) 08:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

References

I don't see that as "disputed" or "controversial". Various authors such as Jeffreys are not saying transmisogyny doesn't exist, which appears to be your aim. They are supplying a nuanced viewpoint about the issue. Binksternet (talk) 12:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

In her book Gender Hurts, Jeffreys rejects Serano's redefinition of misogyny and by doing so disputes the concept of transmisogyny.

This is common to the radical feminist perspective. For example, as human rights lawyer Christen Price writes, "This turns language in on itself. Refusing to deny women the right to spaces where men are not becomes 'cissexism' and 'transmisogyny' - colonizing feminist language to defang feminist work."

This feminist dissent should be included in the article, to avoid it being biased towards one side. 2A00:23EE:15C8:8B77:B446:8C15:E1F0:39B3 (talk) 12:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure there is no dispute as to whether trans-misogyny is a real concept. Why try to add information that just completely discredits this topic as valid? We don't use Hitler to discuss Jewish hate, we don't use KKK rhetoric to talk about BIPOC hate, so why are we using Posy Parker to discuss trans hate? Your want to use Posy Parker isn't for neutrality, it's an attempt to give a platform to hate speech. Please stop pretending that trans hate has a place in discussions about trans people. 199.168.95.209 (talk) 19:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)