Talk:Transnational repression

Should it be moved to "Transnational repression"?

1.Most sources are using and talking about "Transnational repression" but they are written here as "Transnational authoritarianism" , for example:It is "Typology of Transnational Repression" by the source, but here "Typology of transnational authoritarianism". Is that go against Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability? Or "Transnational repression" ="Transnational authoritarianism" ?

2.And could any one give the quote to "A number of actors; principally countries governed by authoritarian states are known to engage in transnational repression of dissident and diaspora communities abroad including but not limited to: China, Saudi Arabia, Rwanda, Turkey and Iran. " and "A range of states engage in these actions, from Russian assassinations to forced disappearances of Chinese and Hong Kong citizens abroad. Freedom House details the extensive use of transnational authoritarianism by a rising number of countries across the world."? I cannot find it, so I think it may be "Synthesis of published material": A. These countries are authoritarian states + B.These countries have transnational repression → C. These countries are transnational authoritarianism.

3. About Edward Snowden, he is forced to in exile in russia(From Snowden’s perspective, the U.S. government is seeking his return for the purpose of persecuting him), so is he under the transnational repression from U.S. government? If not, why? MINQI (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

RfC: 3 Question about the Page "Transnational authoritarianism"

1.Most sources are using and talking about "Transnational repression" but they are written here as "Transnational authoritarianism" , for example:It is "Typology of Transnational Repression" by the source, but here "Typology of transnational authoritarianism". Is that go against Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability? Or "Transnational repression" ="Transnational authoritarianism" ?

2.I can not find the quote to "A number of actors; principally countries governed by authoritarian states are known to engage in transnational repression of dissident and diaspora communities abroad including but not limited to: China, Saudi Arabia, Rwanda, Turkey and Iran. " and "A range of states engage in these actions, from Russian assassinations to forced disappearances of Chinese and Hong Kong citizens abroad. Freedom House details the extensive use of transnational authoritarianism by a rising number of countries across the world.". Are these "Synthesis of published material": A. These countries are authoritarian states + B.These countries have transnational repression → C. These countries are transnational authoritarianism?

Since most sources used "transnational repression", should it be moved from "Transnational authoritarianism" to "Transnational Repression"? And take "Transnational authoritarianism" as a subset of "Transnational Repression", because transnational authoritarianism is "an authoritarian state repress one or more existing or potential members of its emigrant or diaspora communities". The essence of transnational authoritarian is transnational repression.

PS:I am still want to know about the definition of the situation of Edward Snowden. He is forced to in exile in russia("From Snowden’s perspective, the U.S. government is seeking his return for the purpose of persecuting him..".;“We have forced him effectively into exile ...”), so is he under the transnational repression from U.S. government? If not, why? MINQI (talk) 08:59, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Response:

1. I think "Transnational repression" and "Transnational authoritarianism" are synonymous enough to be identical in meaning There is no Wikipedia:No original research issue
2. Regarding the second issue, all five of the governments you mention above are mentioned in the secondary source that is referenced. There is no synthesis of published material; the sentence is an accurate description of what is being described in the secondary source
3. Regarding the renaming of the article from "Transnational authoritarianism" to "Transnational repression", I have no objections to an alteration of the article name in that way.
4. Re: Snowden, to my knowledge the US government hasn't attempted "including assassinations, unlawful deportations, detentions, renditions, physical and digital threats, and coercion by proxy" against him while he resides in Russia. If you have reliable sources to show any of the above, it may be appropriate to add them to the article. (Personally I doubt you'll find any)
5. I am going to revert your most recent edit because it has deleted content from the page without proper justification.

Jack4576 (talk) 09:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

1.If "Transnational repression" ＝ "Transnational authoritarianism", is that mean "repression"="authoritarianism"? Some democratic countries also used state repression, so can a democratic country be an authoritarian state too at the same time? It seems to comes to a shortage of logicality.

2.Could you find the excat quote to them? Or it based on " 'Transnational repression' and 'Transnational authoritarianism' are synonymous"?

4. <Putin refuses US request to extradite Snowden>,<Putin: No grounds to extradite Snowden>. So US government has purposed to the detentions and renditions for him, am I right?

5. You can do it first, let us edit after the end of this talk. MINQI (talk) 10:16, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Yes, democratic states can have authoritarian tendencies. Many historical examples. Turkey is a democracy
2. Each country is presented throughout the piece, by name, as involved in repression activities
3. ...
4. Extradition / detention requests for the purpose of domestic detention, is different to attempting to detain someone while they are in another country. Countries mentioned in this report have a track record of illegally attempting detainment abroad
5. I've completed the reversion, and will keep an eye on this page

Jack4576 (talk) 10:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

About 4. point I can not agree with you for "Typology of transnational authoritarianism-Exile:The direct and indirect banishment of dissidents from the home country, including when the threat of physical confinement and harm prevents activists from returning.". It has not said about a track record of illegally attempting detainment abroad MINQI (talk) 11:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to add Snowden as an example to this article then. Assange too Jack4576 (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, thank you for your patience and reply. MINQI (talk) 17:52, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure. : A litte question: Is that needed to change "transnational authoritarianism" to "transnational repression", because of the original sentences' using "transnational repression"? Or it's OK for "Transnational repression" and "Transnational authoritarianism" being synonymous--MINQI (talk) 19:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Close RFC There has been no previous discussion on this issue. Per WP:RFCBEFORE, this RfC should be closed and a new topic started to discuss the issue and attempt to reach consensus. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

  Y MINQI (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Digression

@Jack4576I as one party just as translator for zhwiki，regarding all the talking by you and other local members in this case.As I have repeated in WP:ANI and other report,I full agree the judgements on the orignal works and edits by orignal editors and authors in enwikipedia ground.

And for more issues about the question on MINQI's orignal reasearch,you could check in zhwikipedia endless battle inrecords from here1,here2,andhere3.

There may be other new records in zhwikipedia for more if someone respond disagreement to MINQI,for the record. Longway22 (talk) 10:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

You may want to raise this with an administrator to have MINQI banned if appropriate Jack4576 (talk) 10:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Yap,but you should know we the members of zhwiki out of hands ,

here are some recenct records and complaint cases involing MINQI responses in zhwikipedia for consider,

you see,as our fellows like user百战天虫 and user維基百科最忠誠的反對者,will not leave any comment on MINQI more,all we tired of endless messing up by that guy above As the zhadmins now wouldn't deal with all the issues of MINQI (FOR SAME ENDLEES MESSING),so WE ALL HAVE NO IDEA OF ending this.SORRY.

I would agree all the proposals from local parties to end the crusade of MINQI. Longway22 (talk) 11:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia. Abuse on the Chinese Wikipedia does not effect their ability to contribute here. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

M would not leave anyone a break until they surrender to it, this is the case of its ability. Longway22 (talk) 13:00, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

What he wants just to be a purger（WP:POINT）. MINQI (talk) 11:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

By the way,I have been reported by MINQI as usual in zhwiki for all the other members that have been in the same cases,adims have also ignored my reports and the matters of cases Longway22 (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Questioning piece of original research

@Jack4576@LemonakaI have found the original source of what Anthony Cordesman discussed about Snowden in here CNN，that could prove the MINQI's assertion on Transnational authoritarianism wouldn't stand on. As the reprint quote in 中國新聞網 for MINQI's editing，the Chinese version didn't fully give the topics of options for the United States in getting Snowden back to face espionage charges，that could be found in section Demands for Snowden to return as section＂要求交出斯诺登＂in Chinese delete contents substantially.It could be unreliable of editing based on the Chinese version of force exile,and making false statement to shareholers of wikipedia. Longway22 (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

What? Is there anything in my busssiness? -Lemonaka‎ 05:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I would like somebody known the discussion be one party acting as neutral witness to the cases，this is one traditon in zhwikipedia，and notice as the Snowden example of case relevant to false quoting，I also file for reviewing the Chinese source in zh WP:RSN,suggest shareholders could keep an eye on it. Longway22 (talk) 07:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

TBH, I really have no interest in your disputes on Chinese Wikipedia. Call for someone who is really interested in such political junks or just leave me alone, alright? -Lemonaka‎ 10:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

So could it overthrow the Snowden case as an example to this article？ Longway22 (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@Longway22，“‘We have forced him effectively into exile – there’s not much to be gained from pushing this issue’”is written in the CNN Links! Stop original researching or disrupting for illustrating your points! MINQI (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@MINQI @Longway22 This is your own business, I'm not familiar with this topic at all, how can I be a judge in that case? Just leave me alone and stop pinging me for a while. -Lemonaka‎ 11:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of Assange as example

In my view the links that are presently on this page regarding Assange are fair, well-supported. There have been accusations that WP:BURDEN has been breached, and I disagree.

Let us not worsen the American NPOV issues on this site by removing reference to one of the most internationally notable instances of transnational repression; though it may be one that sits uncomfortably with prevailing western narratives.

The international pursuit of Assange is well-established, including in the sources that have been linked. WP:NOTCENSORED. Jack4576 (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

You'll need to a cite a WP:RS that actually speaks of Assange as a case of transnational repression. Until then, inclusion is just WP:OR. Amigao (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

No, its not. The exact term doesn't need to be used, this is a wikipedia article about a topical subject, this is not Wiktionary. Where an idea is expressed using terms that clearly show the same idea being expressed in this WP article, the inclusion of such articles as a source is fine. No one can seriously claim that Assange isn't a 'political dissident being targeted abroad' as articulated in the lede. Hence this isn't WP:OR. Nevertheless, I've linked a New Yorker article that more clearly spells it out. Jack4576 (talk) 00:11, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

This is a WP:RS that the USA has been accused of transnational repression. We do not need conclusive proof that the repression occurred, to merely note that the accusation has been made. This is a RS for the accusation having been made. Jack4576 (talk) 00:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you cite a Wikipedia policy to that effect? If sources do not even mention the topic at hand then this is looking more like WP:COAT. Also, if you want to use an op-ed piece to base a statement then you have to follow WP:RSEDITORIAL and include in-text attribution to the author of the claim. Amigao (talk) 01:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

They do discuss the topic at hand, which is the subject of this article, using different terminology. WP articles are not restricted to terminology usage. Transnational repression is a concept, and the articles cited clearly fall within this concept in my view and also in Minqi’s view. If you want to start an RfC and achieve consensus, be my guest; but the consensus view on this page appears to be the inclusion of the Assange and Snowden cases are warranted.

Re: in-text attribution, that is unnecessary. We are not relying on the editorial for the content of its statement; we are merely noting that an accusation has been made. If you feel like the article would be improved by adding a qualifier that the accusation was made in op-ed of the SCMP, feel free to do so. Jack4576 (talk) 02:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

If you have no WP:RS to directly back up the statement being made, it must be removed. WP:RS is a core Wikipedia WP:POLICY and you now seem to be engaging in WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Amigao (talk) 02:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

The statement being made is that an accusation has been made. It is fine to note that the USA has been criticised for transnational repression. It doesn't need to be established itself that the repression actually occurred. This is not a WP:BLP article.

You are yourself engaging in WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Not to mention a 3RR breach. Jack4576 (talk) 03:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

In other words, we have a WP:RS, in fact, a primary source, to demonstrate the mere fact that an accusation has been levelled. Are you going to acknowledge this or continue to refuse to get the point? Jack4576 (talk) 03:15, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Whether the statement in question is an accusation is not the issue. You still have not produced an WP:RS that explicitly alleges an act of "transnational repression." This is clearly an instance of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Amigao (talk) 03:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

The passage in the Wikipedia article merely notes that some people have accused the USA of transnational repression; without commenting on the veracity of those accusations.

The SCMP is clearly a reliable source for the mere fact of the accusation.

We do not have to reliably establish that transnational repression has occured. That would only be necessary if the Wikipedia entry was to state "the United States has engaged in transnational repression" which plainly it does not.

I'm not sure what about that you are WP:NOTGETTINGIT

Also, are you going to address your 3RR breach or do I need to take this to ANI? Thanks. Jack4576 (talk) 03:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

You still have not produced a WP:RS that makes an explicit accusation of "transnational repression" regarding Assange. The op-ed by Alex Lo in SCMP does not exactly make that particular accusation. Amigao (talk) 13:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

"As the top US State Department official decried China for committing “transnational repression”, her government has been engaged in arguably this century’s most infamous example of the practice: the persecution, sorry, prosecution of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange."

There it is, right in the opening paragraph; the author Alex Lo explicitly accuses the USA of engaging in transnational repression regarding Assange. This seems to me relatively straightforward to comprehend, so I am not sure what you are taking issue with. Alex Lo quite clearly has made an accusation that the USA has engaged in transnational repression in relation to Assange.

Hence, the existence of this article is a RS for the fact that the USA has been accused by some authors of having engaged in transnational repression.

Excluding the Assange case from this article completely, despite the SCMP post showing its clear relevance to many commentators in relation to this issue; would be a USA-centric NPOV issue to the extreme.

Also, again, are you going to address your 3RR breach? Jack4576 (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

As already stated, a statement of opinion requires WP:INTEXT per WP:RSEDITORIAL. Now, if you want to state an accusation in WP:WIKIVOICE, you need a WP:RS (preferably WP:GREL) to back it up and not just one person's op-ed piece. Amigao (talk) 17:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@Amigao :please translate the CN source with google translater. As U.S. Gov. identified Chinese police station is a type of transnational repression,Chinese goverment identified what UK & USA done to Assange is transnational repression:"英国在配合美国逮捕引渡阿桑奇方面可谓不遗余力，迅速推进相关程序，充分显示英方维系同美特殊关系的忠诚，以及美英配合对特定人士跨国镇压的事实。".The person and the occasion, these words are said, is Wang Wenbin （a currently spokesman for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, deputy director of the Foreign Ministry Information Department of PRC）and at a regular news briefing （by ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China） in Beijing. If you say it's only an opinion,tell me：

1.why the words from Freedom House or FBI not only an opinion but a fact in you eyes?

2.why can these opinions not be showed in this entry？

3.have these souces about Assange / Snowden been disscussed and "not reliable" as the conclusion？

4.you always said "WP:BURDEN", I have given the quotes (you can not understand is not my fault——"Non-English sources"). Why you still using that reason?

By the way I agree with Jack4576 about "Where an idea is expressed using terms that clearly show the same idea being expressed in this WP article, the inclusion of such articles as a source is fine". I just need to say one example: "Jews runed away because of Nazis' persecutions" = "Jews escaped because of Nazis' persecutions". What you are doing now likes playing on words. MINQI (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Nothing is stopping you from quoting an accusation by Wang Wenbin with proper WP:INTEXT attribution as long as you're using a WP:RS to back it up. Amigao (talk) 20:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Removed this addition - agree with @Amigao that it needs (and didn't have) a reliable source Superb Owl (talk) 22:38, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Why TDM (Macau) is not a reliable source. It's just like Norddeutscher Rundfunk in Germany. MINQI (talk) 10:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It is state media, not public media, which has editorial independence from its government and thus more reliable, especially on political topics Superb Owl (talk) 16:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

1.Sorry but PBS and NPR are state media too(in the list), so are they not reliable sources? By the way, RFA and VOA are also in the list, which means they are viewed as state media, but according to "Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources", they are both considered as reliable sources. And at least one message from RFA has been remained in the text here or other political topics about China.

2.If TDM (Macau) should be removed just because of "public media has editorial independence from its government and thus more reliable, especially on political topics", why the sources like Freedom House(Most of the organization's funding comes from the U.S. State Department and other government grants) has been remained? Or even FBI, DOS, DOJ and CSCE, all of them are showing the points from Federal government of the United States, especially on political topics.

3. On the other hand, TDM (Macau) here just only reported that news, what Wang Wenbin said. MINQI (talk) 18:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

PBS and NPR are not considered state media by reliable sources and are both considered reliable. Superb Owl (talk) 18:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Amigao your most recent reversion is a 3RR breach. In 24 hours you have reverted MINQI once, and me twice. Please stop edit-warring, and undo your most recent reversion. Jack4576 (talk) 02:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Why "Extraordinary rendition" can not be added to See also?

"Extraordinary rendition" is a euphemism for state-sponsored forcible abduction in another jurisdiction and transfer to a third state, a type of state-sponsored extraterritorial abduction. Why can not that be added to See also as "Extraordinary rendition/Extraterritorial abduction"? Even when "Extraterritorial abduction" is added? MINQI (talk) 22:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I support its inclusion in the See Also section Jack4576 (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Amigao:, I have started the discussion as your suggestion. Please explain it for your that insisting. MINQI (talk) 06:37, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Extraordinary rendition is a specific type of extraterritorial abduction (as explained in the 'extraterritorial abduction' article) so it's redundant here. Best to keep the 'See also' list fairly tight. See: MOS:SEEALSO. Amigao (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Since it's a specific type of extraterritorial abduction and sometimes will be misunderstanded, just as what you have done at 17:09, 9 July 2023, it should be written here. MINQI (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

So how exactly is it not redundant then? Amigao (talk) 14:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Other one may misunderstanded what is "Extraordinary rendition" just like you(I do not know what have you thinked about the meaning of "Extraordinary rendition" for you saying "is not mentioned at all to this article, even tangentially" ).

"One purpose of 'See also' links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics; however, articles linked should be related to the topic of the article or be in the same defining category. ","Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous.",so it should be:

• Extraordinary rendition - a specific type of extraterritorial abduction

And I agreed what Jack4576 said at 15:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC). MINQI (talk) 17:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think it’s merely a subtype of induction. In some sense, yes. But its notoriety as a concept stems from it primarily being a charge laid politically against the united states. The counterveilling claim against US adversaries is often ‘transnational repression’. So in some sense, the two terms are often used in opposing political contexts. Given this article is mainly about criticisms laid against China & Russia, I think ‘Extraordinary rendition’ would be a fair inclusion here. Jack4576 (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I support the addition. Why not?Chamaemelum (talk) 06:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Support (though weakly) - I alphabetized the 'see also' so that it's right above Extraterritorial abduction. It's also a higher-rated article (so probably more useful) and seems different enough to put in a separate category though open to changing my mind here Superb Owl (talk) 22:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)