Talk:Transport in the State of Palestine

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. The discussion being in the form of an RM seams to be causing allot of confection. Not much point in having this drag on. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:24, 23 November 2012 (UTC) Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:24, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

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Transport in the Palestinian territories → Transport in the Palestinian National Authority – The title says this is about transport in the Palestinian territories, but the lead says "This article describes transport within the region under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority" (which would mean Areas A and B of the Palestinian territories), so which one is it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 00:39, 23 November 2012‎ (UTC)

This is slimmer to Talk:Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Rename. I just noticed that Economy of the Palestinian territories has the same contradiction between the lead and the title as this article so per the result of it's RM I'll change it's lead to match it's title. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll invite the people who participated in that Economy RM, along with User:Koavf who moved this page from "Transport in Palestinian Authority" to "Transport in the Palestinian territories" and User:Tabletop who created this page under the title "Transportation in Palestinian Authority" to this discussion. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose All the editors, including me, besides the person who recommended it, had a lot of good reasons for keeping the name Economy of the Palestinian territories and the same reasons apply here. Please look at them again here. Change the leads, not the titles. CarolMooreDC 05:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I did change the lead, but it was reverted so that's why I started this RM. Clearly either title needs to be changed to match the lead, or the lead needs to be changed to match the title. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Explain the problem at the talk page. If the problem seems to be a POV one or something that really needs WP:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, go for it. CarolMooreDC 06:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I already explained the problem. The title and the lead don't match so one or the other will need to be fixed, the question here is which one. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:15, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, first, Greyshark should have explained his problem. Maybe it's just that you took out "under the PNA." It does make sense to keep it in, though I don't think it would hurt to move it to the end of the sentence. Renaming whole article is too severe a solution to the problem. CarolMooreDC 07:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The PNA only has jurisdiction over parts of the West Bank, and it no longer has any over the Gaza Strip. Ether this article is about the Palestinian territories, in which case the lead is wrong when it says it's about the "region under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority" and the lead will need to be fixed, or the article is about the region under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority, in which case the title is incorrect and the title will need to be fixed. It seams pretty simple to me, is there something I'm missing here? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Haven't read the above comments, sry, but was asked to come here to comment. The proposed title is not grammatically logical. Tony (talk) 08:22, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Grammar aside do you think the article should be about the Palestinian territories or just the PNA-administered areas. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:53, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm so burned out with real-life work that I hardly have the energy to think about much on WP at the moment. I don't know the answer, and I'd prefer to leave the hot political issue of Palestine to more senior editors than me ... never been there before on WP, and it would require a lot of research and discussion to dare to offer an opinion. Could you bring in a third party (WP:3PO, is it?) if you think that would help? Sorry I can't be more useful at the moment, and good luck! Tony (talk) 11:57, 23 November 2012 (UTC) PS but the grammar in your proposed title does need to be fixed before further discussion; you might put a few options to people. Cheers. Tony (talk) 12:00, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Since this territories/PNA issue seems to be ongoing, I advise you take it and any highly involved parties to WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard and don't forget to mention Talk:Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Rename Notify me when you do it, and I'll jump in with any extra info I think needs consideration. CarolMooreDC 18:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose – this change to a non-sensible title does not seem like a solution to whatever the problem is. Work out the scope of the article and a good title for it, if a change is needed. Dicklyon (talk) 18:59, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What is the scope of this article?

The title says this is about transport in the Palestinian territories, but the lead says "This article describes transport within the region under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority" (which would mean Areas A and B of the West Bank), but the lead then contradicts itself by saying that the article is about "Gaza and the West Bank", so is this article about the Palestinian territories, or the region under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:24, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I think this tweak would fix it:

This article describes transport in the Palestinian territories, which consists of two non-contiguous territories, Gaza and the West Bank, which ostensibly is under control of the Palestinian National Authority. Egress and ingress to these territories is controlled by the state of Israel.

Note that the Palestinian National Authority article reads: Since 2006 elections and especially the Gaza conflict between Fatah and Hamas, its authority extends in the West Bank alone. I couldn't find an obvious ref for that after skimming the article, though it seems to be the defacto truth. So it might be good to look there or otherwise research for a WP:RS that better explains defacto vs. legal status. CarolMooreDC 03:14, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

That would be better then then the current discribeion because it accounts for Gaza being under de-facto Hamas control, but it doesn't account Area C of the West Bank which isen't under PNA jurisdiction. How about changing "control" to "partial control" or "partial jurisdiction"?

Also that description assumes that the articles scope will be the Palestinian territories, and not just Areas A and B, but does anyone object to the scope being the Palestinian territories? Slimmiler articles such as Economy of the Palestinian territories and Racism in the Palestinian territories and every page at intitle:the Palestinian territories are about the Palestinian territories and I don't see a reason for this page to differ. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I suggest the following wording:

This article describes transport in the Palestinian territories, which consists of two non-contiguous territories, Gaza and the West Bank, different parts of which are administered by Palestinian National Authority, Hamas Administration in Gaza and Israel. Egress and ingress to these territories de-jure is controlled by Israel, but such control is not enforced on the Gaza land border with Egypt.

The last sentence may be simply removed and the issue described instead in the corresponding sections about Gaza, Area A, B, C. Japinderum (talk) 07:09, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I forgot about this discussion, but Japinderum's idea looks good, I'll go ahead and implant it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:04, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - main discussion on this issue (concepts PNA/Pt) is ongoing at Talk:Palestinian National Authority.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
  • That distinction is about weather the PNA is a Organization/Government like the Government of Hong Kong or a geopolitical entity/physical location like Hong Kong. That issue does have some relevance to the issue here but I wouldn't call that the main discussion on this issue. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, I don't see how the debate about "Is the PNA an organization or entity" is going to help here. Whatever the PNA is the question here is whether this article deals with:

  1. Transport in West Bank and Gaza Strip - under the administration of Hamas for Gaza, PNA for Area A and B, Israel for Area C
  2. Transport in Gaza, Area A and B of West Bank, but without Area C
  3. Transport only in Area A and B of West Bank Japinderum (talk) 07:09, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Finding references would help. CarolMooreDC 17:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• I have been asked to come and give my mind here. The Palestinian Territories are the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem. Some of them have been annexed by Israel or are under Israeli administration. So, they are not limited to the Palestinian Autorithy. Rgds, Pluto2012 (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Marriage in the Palestinian territories which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 04:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)