Talk:Traum durch die Dämmerung/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jonas Vinther (talk · contribs) 21:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

• Well-written

a. The prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct

b. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation

The overall article is well-written with a couple of "errors" which I will list below.

1. "Traum durch die Dämmerung" ("Dream in the Twilight", literally "Dream through the Twilight") - because the German word setting differs significantly from the English word setting it can be difficult to translate titles, sentences, and so on. Although, speaking German myself, I would suggest "Dream through the Twilight" rather than "Dream in the Twilight". Also considering writing it like so "Traum durch die Dämmerung" (English: "Dream through the Twilight").

We need to mention the way it is published in English. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

2. "Is the title of a poem in German by Otto Julius Bierbaum" - a more professional wording would be "is a German poem by Otto Julius Bierbaum".

done --GA

3. I don't see the point in writing "Lied" instead of simply "song". If "Lied" must be kept, consider writing it like this "Lied (song)".

Lied is not song but art song, there's a link for those who don't know. --GA

4. I don't see the point in mentioning "his Op. 29/1" in the lead either. Seems like it belongs in the body text itself.

I haven't seen any piece of music yet where the op- number was not given in the lead. I helps those who know his works to immediately tell that it's an early work. --GA

5. "The opening line is "Weite Wiesen im Dämmergrau" ("Broad meadows in grey dusk") - why is this of any relevance?

Some people will know rather for this line than the title of the song. It's a redirect and sets the scene. --GA

6. "published by Universal Edition as 3 Lieder mit Klavierbegleitung ("Three songs with piano accompaniment") - is the official published title spelled in numbers or with words? If three is spelled with numbers, the English translation should also contain numbers not words; that's just confusing.

It's published that way. --GA

So ... in Germany it was published with "3" and in English it was published with "three"? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

7. "The poem "Traum durch die Dämmerung" - the name of the poem has already been mentioned in the lead and, so far in the article, it is the only poem discussed so there is no need for the name mention; just write "The poem".

Repetition of "poem" removed. --GA

8. "first appeared in Berlin in 1892 in a collection by Bierbaum, Erlebte Gedichte (Experienced poems), printed by Verlag von Wilhelm Issleib" - this entire sentence should be changed to a more professional version such as "first appeared in Berlin in 1892 in a collection known as Erlebte Gedichte ("Experienced Poems") by Bierbaum that was published by Verlag von Wilhelm Issleib ("Wilhelm Isslieb's Publishing House").

thank you, done --GA

9. "Bierbaum dedicated the collection of 217 pages, with "Traum durch die Dämmerung" on page 130" - should be changed to a more professional wording like "Bierbaum dedicated the 217 page collection, with Traum durch die Dämmerung on page 130".

done --GA

10. "A personal introduction dedicated the work to Detlev von Liliencron" - this is not very clear! does page 130 include a personal introduction dedicated to von Liliencron? If so, it should added and the sentence should be "Forewords contain a personal introduction to Detlev von Liliencron".

done --GA

11. "A second edition appeared one year later" - A second edition of the poem or of the introduction? It's not very clear and should be clarified.

"of the collection" added --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

12. "The poem appeared in the 1906 anthology Lyrik des Jugendstils by Jost Hermand, who noted that the title is a paradigm of the literature of the Jugendstil" - remember to add the English translation so it looks like this "anthology Lyrik des Jugendstils ("Poetry of Art Nouveau") by Jost Hermand".

done --GA

13. "It tells of a man going to meet a beloved woman" - a more professional version would sound "It tells the story of man going to meet a beloved woman".

It's not a story, and he speaks himself, tried differently --GA

Maybe it's just because I'm use to hearing "a story" after "tells". Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

14. "as in Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's 1771 poem "Willkommen und Abschied" (Welcome and farewell)" - should be changed to "as in Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's 1771 poem Willkommen und Abschied ("Welcome and farewell").

found done --GA

15. The entire poem listed in German should contain an English translation.

I doubt it. This was discussed for Bach's cantatas and rejected, - as needing to choose one of several. typically one has this better, another one that. There's a translation in the refs (Naxos) and external links (acad.depauw.edu). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

What was the exact reason for Bach's cantatas? And should that be a sufficient reason not to include it here? Was there an agreement that it should go for all non-English poems? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 14:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Reasons were (this was in 2010, you will find it in Classical music archives) that every translation has a POV: better not show one but offer alternatives. In this case, the best one (Naxos) may be under copyright, + it's available, - why would we copy? I know articles where a translation is provided, for example Four Last Songs, and others without even poem text, for example Duino Elegies and Jesu, meine Freude. I remember a translation removed as copyvio, but forgot the article. --GA

Okay, I understand and agree now. :) Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

16. "Traum durch die Dämmerung" (literally: Wide meadows in twilight grey, translated by Richard Stokes: "Broad meadows in grey dusk") - what in the world is this?

I don't understand the question, sorry. --GA

I cant exactly remember why I added this as an error ... hmm. It seems to matter no more. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

17. "with line 4 repeating line 1" - line 4 does not repeat line 1 totally, only sort of; might consider a better reformulation.

In the first stanza, slightly different ("Weit über Wiesen", instead of "Weite Wiesen"), in the second completely, - would you have a wording for that? --GA

18. "a combination of "Dämmerung" (twilight) and "grau" (grey)" - this is fine but should be changed to "a combination of Dämmerung (twilight) and grau (grey)". Remember that all foreign words should be in italics unless it's invented words like "Dämmergrau".

done (need to stop again) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

19. "I don't walk fast" would be a more understandable translation of "Ich gehe nicht schnell" rather than "I do not go fast".

never "don't" in articles, always "do not", - walk is rather narrow in meaning, while "gehen" very general, including "es geht gut", - I see him moving slower than "walk" ;) --GA

True, I also meant "do not", I just wrote "don't" because this is just a talk page. Maybe we should just find a replacement for "go" then. "Go" is not necessarily slow! Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

After second thought, we should properly not remove "go", as it's the closest we'll most likely come to an English version of "gehe", "gehn" and so on. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

20. "the year after he married Pauline de Ahna and settled in Munich where he was born" - this version would sound better "the year after he married Pauline de Ahna, and settled in Munich, the town of his birth".

done --GA

21. "Strauss liked his poems and set several of them" - that does not grammarly make sense?

help? add "to music"? --GA

yes, "to music" would be a good addition. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

done --GA

22. The 3 songs mentioned in the "Composition and publication" section should be in some sort of a box or the display-system should be re-written.

it could be a table? --GA

Table would be perfect. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 19:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

will try, but first run through the other comments --GA

33. "a leading baritone of the court opera of Munich" - instead of "of Munich" it should say "in Munich".

done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

34. "The songs were first published in Munich by Joseph Aibl. They were then published by Universal Edition" - is there no information on the years it was published? Should be researched or clarified.

will try --GA

35. "immer ruhiger (aber nicht schleppen)" (calmer and calmer (but no dragging))" - this needs to be re-written; it looks very unprofessional with all the "((()()())))()".

what can we do? The quote has brackets, we typically put a translation in brackets. I would like to stay as close to the original as possible (which means not rephrase) as it's by the composer. Open for suggestions --GA

Gerda Arendt, you could switch between "()" and "[]" - this is actually commonly done elsewhere on Wikipedia in sentences with the same problem. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 22:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Please give me an example. I would hesitate to use [] in the quoted marking, and it looks strange (at least to me) around the translation. We might spell out "which translates to". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You're properly right in that. Also, replacing "[]" with "()" only works if there's two paragraphs, there's six in this one. I, like you, suggest this:

• "immer ruhiger (aber nicht schleppen)" which translates as, "calmer and calmer (but no dragging)"

Thoughts? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 23:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

36. "The poem "Traum durch die Dämmerung" - there is really no need for the "the poem" addition, we are now at the last section of the article; it's pretty clear it's a poem and not space planet. ;)

The last paragraph told us about the Lied. "Poem" was added for clarity, for those who missed reading the header ;) --GA

• Verifiable with no original research

a. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.

b. It provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines.

c. It contains no original research

The sources used in this article is very acceptable (Düsseldorf University, Hyperion Records, C. Bange Verlag, Universal Edition, Der Spiegel, and Allmusic). However, there are an unacceptable number of sentences in this article that is not currently cited to a source and this will solely determine whether it will pass or not.

Most of the sentences are derived from the score (as things about a picture could be said looking at a reproduction). Should it be noted? How? I found it tricky to combine the IMLSP template with the cite template. In other articles (example BWV 172), the score is part of the bibliography. Should I convert to Harvard refs? --GA

"Strauss quoted the music, as several other early works, in the fifth section of his tone poem Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life), Op. 40, completed in 1898, which is usually considered autobiographical in tone." - sentence is not sourced!

It's sourced in Heldenleben. Should we repeat here? I understand the comment below as rather no need to "rehash". --GA

"The song is completed by a modified repeat of the last three lines, this time in Bierbaum's word order." - sentence is not sourced!

"This climax of the first stanza is prepared by a crescendo, but again a sudden pianissimo. With the beginning of the second stanza, the key returns to F-sharp major, the melody is not identical but similar to the first stanza; the first motif appears one step higher, from B to G sharp, on "Dämmergrau", repeated on "Liebe Land". The line reaches a climax on "blaues" (blue). The text of the last three lines is repeated as a shortened version of a stanza, with the first motif in its second form this time on "gehe nicht schnell" and "eile nicht", with this emphasis on "not fast" marked "immer ruhiger (aber nicht schleppen)" (calmer and calmer (but no dragging))." - sentence is not sourced!

"The voice ends with a rising line, ending openly on C sharp, while the triplet movement stops, and the piano slowly repeats the final chord, marked ppp." - sentence is not sourced!

"Lutz Landwehr von Pragenau set it for baritone and piano as Op. 1/2 in 1979." - sentence is not sourced!

I'm honestly surprised that the editors that worked on this article, particular the GA-nominator, could miss all those sentences in the face of GA-nomination. The article will not pass with these sentences un-sourced.

• Broad in its coverage

a. It addresses the main aspects of the topic.

b. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail.

I'm satisfied with the articles converge. It covers some history, creation, poeam structure and detailed, but not too technical, information, publishing, and legacy. It stays on topic and does not go into unnecessary detail.

• Neutral

The article represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each, and is very acceptable in terms of neutrality.

• Stable

The article does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. The overall poem is not the subject of controversial nor constant discussion and disagreements.

• Illustrated

a. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content.

b. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

The article features three pictures (one in infobox and two for each section further down). All the files are used and on Wikimedia Commons and all have acceptable image-status/text. Given the length of the article, the number of pictures seems rather perfect.

• Pass, fail, hold?

Because of the somewhat many un-sourced sentences I seriously considered failing it. However, because the GA-nominator is highly experienced and (presumably) the overwhelming contributor to the article I have decided to put it on hold instead, and give editors a change to fix the grammar and sentence "errors" I pointed out in the "Well-written" section, and, most importantly, source those un-cited sentences.

I hope this helps. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 00:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The GA criteria - which you have reproduced above - require inline citations only for certain kinds of sentences, like contentious statements. Criterion 2b is worded very carefully. They don't require inline citations for everything. Mkativerata (talk) 01:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Ein Heldenleben goes into well-sourced detail, which hardly needs rehashing here. For cases like "The song is completed by a modified repeat of the last three lines, this time in Bierbaum's word order." is there any possible doubt about where one would look to verify, or is the reviewer's concern with improper synthesis? Lutz Landwehr von Pragenau's Op. 1/2 goes unmentioned at Liedernet (I rather like Emily's rendering "Dreaming through the Twilight" btw) but it wouldn't be unusual for a piece by a notable composer (startling as it is though to see the [Biennale cite WP though!) to be self-published and I think we can take him at his word in his Lebenslauf. Sparafucil (talk) 04:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

In that case, only the points in the "Well written" section needs to be fixed/looked at. And if they are, I'll pass it. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 11:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, you don't have to comment on those sentences that were unsourced as that issue has already been clarified by other editors. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 15:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Table added. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Awesome, I have passed the article - good job. ;) Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 12:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, especially for good questions and advice for improvements! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:12, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Well written

Jonas has made some excellent suggestions. If I may chime in:

• 10 I'm still confused: does this mean something like "a handwritten dedication in Detlev's copy"?

No, it's part of the printed book. --GA

"personal" is then perhaps best dropped. S

• 16 The translation is of the incipit, but follows the title "Traum..." instead.

Will try a table tomorrow, mentioning title and incipit. --GA

• 19 I vote for "walk" (as an a Anglophone I still can't understand how a cloud can geh, though.)
• 33 Fine with me either way (or even as "the Munich Court Opera"), but I'm confused after a lot of reading about precisely when the Hof- u. National Oper became the Staatsoper. After the Empire? Sparafucil (talk) 21:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Names of theatres are a topic with no end. I think the precise German name at the time doesn't matter too much in this case, the importance by function is what counts. I don't think capitals are justified, it's not a name, and yes, no more court after no more kingdom,

I realize it's complicated! I know the name National Theatre long survived the Bavarian nation, and from what I can tell so did the other name. Shall we say "court theatre (as it was still known)" and trust readers to not become confused, or sidestep with "Munich opera"? -S

I prefer court opera, because the other sounds a bit municipal, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Sparafucil. Please, everyone, feel free to try better wording without asking, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

When the table is added I will glance the article again and almost certainly pass it, Gerda Arendt ;). Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 22:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Later today ot tomorrow, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, not that it's vital for the GA-review, but look at Morgen! for example - it's that kind of translation I was thinking about, a literal translation. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 13:36, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Photo

This is a really excellent page. Let's hope that it is the first of many more on Strauss Lieder. Just one thing: the Strauss Photo comes from a decade before the song. There are photos/paintings of him from within a year of the song being written - see the page for Also Sprach Zarathustra (Strauss) and Don Quixote (Strauss). Just a suggestion (I won't touch a thing), and thanks again for the wonderful page.Byronmercury (talk) 11:03, 8 December 2015 (UTC)