Talk:Tsamiko

Is this Cham in Albanian

is this Cham in Albanian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Move back

I suggest this should be moved back to Tsamiko. For better or worse, these items are much better known in the English-speaking world under their Greek names than under the Albanian. This is no judgment on what is more "original" or which national tradition is more valuable, it just happens to be the case that Greek culture is better known abroad. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not the albanian form, it is the English form of the name. It has no sense to bee in Greek, when it is not a originally Greek dance. In google, there are 39.000 hits with tsamiko, which means that this dance is not known worldwide. It should be proper to use the Albanian name, but since this is english wiki, the english name is fine.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

But is it the English form? I have heard "Tsamiko" in English. I've never heard "Cham dance". In fact, checking on Google, it seems that "Cham dance" is the name of something entirely different, some Tibetan dance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have heard cham dance in english. Tsamiko is just a rewording of "valle çame", the albanian word, so is nonsense to be the name of the dance.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is not up to you to decide what is or isn't "nonsense" in English. Leave that to the English speakers. You seem still to be thinking that our usage should reflect what is more "original". It shouldn't. It should reflect what is more common, and only that. On that count, "Tsamiko" beats "Cham" by a very wide margin. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Which is the margin? valle çame in google has more than 100 thousand hits, tsamiko has less than 40 thousand hits.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

How did you search that? Googling for "valle çame" (in quotes, of course) gives 15,900 hits for me; of the first few, more than half are actually the English word came in connection with some other meaning of valle and have no relation at all with this topic. Among the rest, many are pages in Albanian and thus irrelevant to the question of English usage. Try searching Google books too: Lots of entries for Tsamiko, including academic works as well as others; not a single one for either "valle çame" or "cham dance" (except for the Tibetan ones.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

SO, in your point of view, 39 thousand hits in google, and 35 hits in google scholar are notable, in order to be "the english version"?Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with notability. Notability is about whether the dance as such is notable enough to warrant an article (which I presume it does). What we are talking about is the name. Since there is no other contender for the "English version" that fares any better than "Tsamiko", yes, of course, that'll be the one. Your proposal of "Cham dance" boils down to simply inventing a name that nobody out there seems to be using. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But tsamiko cannot be the "english version" since there are so little hits, most of which are just translations of greek pages, or videos. What I did in here, was that, since neither the greek, nor the albanian name is the "english version", as asked byt "WP use english", I made it in the english form of the word (which is cham). Tsamiko or Vallja Came is not popular in english, and the google test confirms it. Hence, "the dance of the chams" is normal to have a neme of the article which is "cham (dance)".Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Look, an expression that you made up can never be "the English version". The English version is whatever English speakers use most often (or least rarely, if you like). The thing itself is pretty obscure in this case, so no expression for it will occur with high frequency, but among the rare occasions where English speakers do talk about this dance, they seem to be using Tsamiko, and not Cham dance, in the huge majority of all cases. Got it? – Sorry, but I'm getting a bit impatient now. I'm going to move it back in a few minutes, unless some really good new argument comes up until then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

WOH? Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or ["cham dance" albania] in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english!Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

PS. You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

End of discussion, this is not making any progress. I'm moving back. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Tsamiko is not the english version

Tsamiko is not the english version, as I pointed out in the previous disccussion and the move back by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise is unexplained. I propose moving the page to Vallja çame, or Cham (dance).Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Cham (dance) has been redirected to the real Cham Dance, the Tibetan one. When English speakers say "cham dance", they invariably mean that, and not the Balkanian one. Yet another reason why that title doesn't make any sense for this article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This does not mean that "Tsamiko" is the english version. If neither "cham dance" is the english version, than Vallja came is the most propriate.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You are repeating yourself, and not getting more persuasive all the while. Give it up already, this is not leading anywhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Again no answer! I am not giving up, as long, as I have arguments, and as long, as I know that I am right. Let me repeat myself clearly, in case that you have not seen the question: "Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or ["cham dance" albania] in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english! You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages." Please answer!Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

For the millionth-and-fifth time: "cham" isn't the English name, because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. Grow up. The world is as it is, not as you wish it to be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

For the millionth-and-fifth time: I am not asking you if "cham" is the English name, but I am saying that Tsamiko is used by no English-speaker because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. I am not talking about the "cham", i am talking about "tsamiko", which is used only by greeks, even in english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This is simply not true. "Tsamiko(s)" is used by everybody in the literature who ever has occasion to talk about the dance. By the way, when we were reviewing the google pages, we both forgot that the actual Greek term is "Tsamikos", not "Tsamiko". Add the google results for "Tsamikos" to the others. Again, lots of entries on Google books, from international academic literature not in Greek or by Greeks. As opposed to ZERO hits for either of your versions. Really, show me at least one before you go on here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent). I have to concur with Fut. Perfect here. I've been folkdancing in North America, and am a Native Enlgish speaker. We call it Tsamiko, Not "Cham dance. You're simply wrong Balkanian, I'm sorry. Have a look at the dance lists of the several hundred folkdance clubs in North America (all widely available on the web) and you'll see that all English users use the term tsamikos, including to my knowledge all international folkdance teachers in North America and Britain.Comhreir (talk) 03:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Albania has been closed and backward for the last decades and greek emmigraton has distributed the greek version of the original dance . Don't you think it is time to put history back where it belongs and give the real history and legend of the dance where it belongs. As a reader inquiring for the dance I would be delighted to have more details and history of the dance in Wikipedia.(Lceliku (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC))

"Osman Taka"

Is "Dance of Osman Taka" really an alternative name for the dance as such (i.e. the pattern of steps and movements), or the name of a specific dance song associated with it (i.e. a specific melody?) I see it mentioned a lot in lists of songs. In that case we shouldn't include it as an alternative name of the dance, but can of course mention it as a representative example somewhere. In any case, I'm going to move it down to where "Kleftikos" is now; please let's not over-burden the lead sentence even more. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is the original name of the dance. Osman Taka, was a Cham Albanian, who according to the myth, managed to save his life, dancing to the sultans, in 17th century. Thus, Cham Albanians, called this dance the Dance of Osman Taka. Greeks and the rest of Albanians, saw this as a dance of Cham Albanians, and called it tsamiko, as other Albanians, called it cham dance. It is explained in the book "Folk dance of europe", but i`ll give you the reference later on.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but you didn't really answer my question: Is "Dance of Osman Taka" linked to a specific melody, as the references in various CD anthologies seem to suggest? If I dance the Tsamiko steps to some other melody, like Papalabraina or Enas Aetos, would that still be "Osman Taka"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No its the original name of the dance. What is called by greeks "tsamikos", and by the rest of albanians(exept chams) "vallja came", by cham albanians is called "vallja e osman takes" (at least traditionally, cause most of muslim chams now are fully integrated to albanian cultura and may use "vallja came" as an alternative name, for their original "vallja e osman takes").Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I'm dumb, but I think you still haven't answered my very simple question. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I was clear: "tsamikos" (greece)= "vallja came" (albania) = "vallja e osman takes" (cham albanians). "Enas aetos" is a song, which greeks say it is "tsamikos", albanians (exept chams) say it is "valle came" and chams say it is "valle e osman takes".Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But that doesn't match the description in the book you cited ([1]), because it clearly describes "Osman Taka" as something involving a specific text, not just any other song with the same dance steps. And, as I marked in the article, you'll have to source your claim of it being the "original" name. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) This [2] addition does not support the claim you are trying to make. The source is not saying "Osman Taka" is the "original" name. In fact, I don't know what the source is saying, because the way you quoted it it is ungrammatical. Some mistake in copying? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok I`ll cite the whole paragraph. The Dance of Osman Taka is the same as Tsamiko, and this is proved here. It says that the "dance known in Southern Albania as "Dance of Osman Taka" and in Northern Greece as "Tsamiko". This means that this is the same dance with 2 different names. As for the "original", I am copying the whole paragraph.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Look, try to listen to what I'm saying. That very same source (Balkan Border Crossings, talks on the next page of "the text that accompanies the dance". "Tsamiko", as such, is not associated with a specific text or story. If "Osman Taka" has a text, then it is not the same as "Tsamiko", it is an instance of Tsamiko. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Reading it, I think that it explains what "dancers think about it", in specific occasions (the festivals in Saranda and Gjirokastra). I do not understand what is the problem here. I really don`t get it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You really don't, do you. The book is talking about "O.T." in the sense of it being a specific song (a text plus a melody), not in the sense of it being a dance (a pattern of body movements). "Tsamiko" is a dance. "O.T." is a song (that can be danced as a Tsamiko). It's like claiming that "The Blue Danube" is another word for "waltz". The one is an instance of the other, but not the same as the other.

And your additions to the other quotation have yet neither provided the basis for your "original" claim, nor have they removed the grammatical error. If that's what the source actually says, it's worthless gibberish. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I don`t see, were in the first reference, it speaks about the song, and not the whole "dance". And the second source, clearly states that "The Dance of Osman Taka", became known outside Cham Albanians later on and by other names, which clearly menas, that this name was the first one, or original.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

As for the gramatical errors, the author calls Chameria as Çamërie, Himara as Himare and Kleftiko as Klephtico. I copy paste it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you can't see, then read it again until you see it. "Tsamiko" is only and exclusively a dance. If you think of some "whole dance" in the sense of steps+melody+text, it cannot possibly be the same as Tsamiko. -- As for your other quote, there are two bits in it that would be relevant, but they are both marred by either incorrect grammar or incomplete quoting: "...call it a variation of a much older dance..." (syntactically incoherent, what's the "it" doing there? Did you even spot the error?), and "...under its new name..." (but you left out the bit in between where it says what "new name" is actually being talked about.) So there's no way I can verify what that source actually says. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, from the few scraps I get of the book text on books.google, it appears to me that it is presenting "O.T." and "Tsamiko" as two different entries? And yes, you did quote the beginning wrong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

On the first book:
1. It speaks about the traditon of Tsamiko.
2. Tsamiko in tradition was a dance to show the "mythistory".
3. Tsamiko is danced with music.
4. In tradition, the music which is danced as tsamiko, has a text. 5. THIS IS NOT LIMITED.
E.g. Another albanian dance "The dance of the swords" is created to show the brevary of the men and in tradition was without music. Today there are songs, with the bit of the dance of th swords, the text of which speaks about love

On the second book:
1. it is "call this a variation of a much older dance" my fault.
2. The part I left apart, tells about the history of Osman Taka, the history that I explained above. At the end, it says that, Osman Taka was executed, and does not say anything about any new name.
3. It is clear thet the new name, which he implies, is the "arvanitic dance", "tsamiko", "kleftiko", "himariotiko", "vallja came", which he explains in the next paragraph.

I may be really dum, but I cannot understand where is the problem in here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No, this is the entry about Tsamiko. After he explaines the dance, he speaks about the history, and thus, starts with that paragraph about the dance of Osman Taka.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

About the first book: Yes, Tsamiko is danced with music. But not exclusively with one specific piece of music. In Greece, it can be danced with any number of different songs, with different texts and totally different melodies, which just need to have the same rhythm. "O.T." is one specific song with one text and one melody. So, today, at least in Greece, the words "Tsamiko" and "O.T." mean two different things.

About the second: this seems hardly possible. Right in the paragraph before he introduces "O.T.", he is talking about a dance in 2/4 meter with steps "slow-quick-quick". But that's not Tsamiko. Greek Tsamiko is a slow 3/2. That paragraph must be talking about a totally different dance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I don`t know whats happening. I read in the first book that the same dance in albania is called the dance of osman taka and in greece, tsamiko. "The second one tells the same thing. I don`t understand whats the problem.

What about this: Çamçe is known among Çamë as a men’s dance, which is also named after independence fighters like “Osman Taka” or “Isuf Arapi”, whose acts have left strong traces in the community’s memory." Bulgarian Institute for Albanian Studies?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You really should learn to go easy on those relative clause joiners. In most cases, they make less sense than you seem to think. – By the way, how reliable a source is that "Folk dance" book anyway? It may be nice for describing actual dances, but their history? The book doesn't even get the name of those people right ("...the region of Tsamidon..."); how good can it possibly be about history? In fact, can there possibly be a history of these dances at all? What were their "original" names, who called them by what name when, who borrowed what from whom at what time – it takes not just a "reliable source" to write about such things, it takes a clairvoyant. Because, in most cases, histories of non-written folk culture items older than a century or so will be not just unknown, but in principle unknowable. What kinds of research and what kinds of empirical evidence does that book cite in support of its claims? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed! You`re right!Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

redirecting

There was a consensus on this page about the name. I do not know if Sarandioti has any argument for this redirecting. If yes, please state it. Otherwise it should be redirected to Tsamiko, or to another form.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I really don't know why a name can also mean 'de facto' origin, some guys had lot of imagination about this article. Actually there is not a single book saying that 'Tsamiko' is also danced in Albania (or it's of Albanian origin). Other examples are the 'Serviko' (of Serbian origin?), 'Hasaposerviko' (Serbian butchers origin?), Zeibekiko (of Turkish irregular's origin?), Rebetiko (of turkish rebels origin?). If you wanna give arguments bring books to prove them.Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

No sources found that describe an Albanian/Cham link with Tsamiko, apart from the etymology itself. Seems that this exact dance isn't danced by albanians/chams at all. Additional sources are welcomed.Alexikoua (talk) 10:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Usually as a rule of the thumb the name means origin. Example Americans speak English even if you could argument that what they speak is so different from UK English as Swedish is from Norwegian.--Lceliku (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Surprise

I would have never thought that the Greek National Anthem was taken from a Cham Dance and the Greek National wear and fustanella from the Albanian Chams. Hmm interesting. I will see if I can include the adjustment of Greek Nathional anthem Wiki section in my future projects. For the moment will only try to get some more references.--Lceliku (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The Greek national anthem isn't a Tsamiko. It's a tune in the style of a 19th-century Italian operatic march, which just happens to be in 3/4 meter. Its actual rhythm isn't particularly Tsamiko-like, and it's usually played significantly faster than a typical Tsamiko dance, but I suppose that like any other 3/4 tune you can turn it into something danceable as a Tsamiko if you twist the performance a bit – just like you could turn it into a Waltz. Note that the only feature that links it to a Tsamiko is the 3/4 meter – which is exactly the most notable feature that the Greek Tsamiko dance does not share with its native Albanian/Cham counterparts (which are apparently 2/4). Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you it is clear. Just a question; couldn't it just have evolved in time (e.g. like American English to the Original English language but it is still called English and there is no doubt it has originated from UK), so the Tsamiko originated from the Cham Albanians and then developed the 3.4 meter in stead of the 2.4 meter in the Cham counterpart ? I am Canadian and in the French spoken in Quebec I could find as many 3.4 meteres as you want to justify it is not French but another language but we still call it French , if you see what I mean. But anyways I am not an ethnographist or historian and only 40 years old, so I will leave it up to you professionals.--Lceliku (talk) 05:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Picture

I'll add a 19th century painting that depicts some guys dancing Tsamiko, next days. Perhaps posting personal stuff in here isn't a good idea at all.Alexikoua (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Under Albania Wikiproject

Ok, Alexi I reverted you because you had reverted me in entering the Albania Wikiproject. I'll explain to you why this has to stay in the Albanian Wikiproject. The first sentence of the article is wrong: It is stating that it is a dance of Greece, which means the "dance of the Cham Albanians". If it is the dance of the Cham Albanians, it is used by the Cham Albanians first. Since the Cham Albanians are Albanians, and since there are a lot of Cham Albanians who live in Albania and have spread this dance throughout Albania (I will post some videos of how the dance is performed in Albanian weddings), this has to be covered by the Albanian Wikiproject as well as the Greek one. Hope I was clear. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh man, this is frustrating. We've discussed this millions of times. Can't you guys watch a dance and count to three? Watch an Albanian "Cham dance". Count to two. Watch a Greek "Tsamiko". Count to three. They are entirely different dances. Just listen to the music. Listen. Try to dance a "Cham dance" to the music of a Greek Tsamiko. Or vice versa. It just doesn't work. We are dealing with different dances, which share only the etymology of the name (and some elements of the style and posture of the steps). The Greek Tsamiko is named after the style of Cham dancing, but it isn't Cham dancing. It's different. Is this really so difficult to grasp? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I will take your word for it, I thought it was the same thing. Rv myself. So basically I have to start the Cham Dance article and bring my videos there? --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought Balkanian`s word already created one? Lemme see, it must be somewhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I see only this in his contributions. If Osman Taka Dance = Çamçe then I'll do some redirects, but first I'll watch a lot of dances in youtube to understand better. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems he only created Dance of Osman Taka in the end. BTW, sorry for being so impatient just now, but I really thought you had been following those discussions with B.w. earlier. Our last was here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Tsamiko edits

The recent additions imply that the Rumeli Tsamiko is slower than the Epirus Tsamiko. Thats not even supported by any inline. Not to mention that a number of inlines do not support the text that's recently added, in order to support the usual pov (similar to the childish arguments presented by some above perma-blocked editors).Alexikoua (talk) 12:14, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

On rapport and etiquette (see: wp:civil). Anyway Koco says this on Greek and Albanian (p.14) : "In contrast to the Tsamiko dance of the Greeks, the Albanian çamçe is an energetic dance in a rubato manner whereby a prominent role is taken by the leader of the dancing, accompanied by one or sometimes two other soloist dancers." The slower paced was based on the contrast part but it can be without. The the sentences are in tune. Please consult the sources. I have not only made placed the weblink, i have also placed page numbers as well.Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

The hypothesis that Rumeli tsamiko is slower than Epirus one is wp:or. In fact its one of the several wp:or added recently (it would be wp:civil to avoid similar disruption done by blocked editors, see sections above). BestAlexikoua (talk) 17:57, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

The sentence in question was dealt with. Clicking on the accounts to see what you mean, only one editor who participated here is blocked due to sock puppetry and in the investigation its says nothing about that editors edits here being a cause for the block. Are you inferring something serious on my part ? I have been on Wikipedia for almost a decade now without any blocks or sanctions etc. As for your claim of several wp:or, which ones ? Last week i had to clean up some number of your wp:or and source misinterpretations regarding Cham articles if you want to go down that road.Resnjari (talk) 19:16, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

What makes you believe that this part: The dance is associated with the repertoire of music from the Albanian Cham people from Chameria, a region of Epirus can be supported by Koco and Lenis? At least both quotes you provided claim nothing like that.Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I'll let he content on the pages of the source to the talking. On page 14 citing scholar such as Lloyd and Baud-Bovy (this guy you used as a reference, though you still have not provided a quote):

"In a review on Doris and Erich Stockmann’s and Fiedlers book Albanische Volksmusik, A L. Lloyd writes that “though a relatively small group, the Chams have made a deep mark on the folklore of the Southwestern Balkans lending their name to the Jugoslav čifče čamče and the Greek tsamkos, two of the most characteristic dances of that part of the globe” (Lloyd 1969. 1 80). The Cham people (AIb. Çam), an Albanian-speaking ethnic population who inhabit a district of Epirus known as Chameria (Alb. Çamëria Gr. Tsamouriá, Tsamouria), “have given their name to one of the most typical dances of continental Greece. the Tsamikos, or the dance of the Chams’” (Baud-Bovy 1967. 126)."

Koco who does not even use his own words on the matter (in the bit i am going to use now) for example cites Chianis -who did fieldwork on the issue:

p. 16. "The words Tsamides and Tsamopoulo are also found in Greek folk song texts... Tsamides refers to those people who reside in Tsamouria, located in the northern part of Epirus. For the word Tsamiko literally means: from Tsamouria. Finally, the term Tsamiko (referring specifically to that particular type of Greek folk song and its accompanying dance) is also used in Albania, though spelled Tchamicos.It must be especially emphasized, however, that the Albanian tchamicos and the tsamiko from Epirus and parts of Greek Macedonia are extremely similar, if not one of the same. The Tsamiko of Roumeli and the Peloponnesus (and that of Thessaly) is choreographically and musically quite different from its counterpart in northern Greece (Chianis 1967, 16)."

Especially that of Chianis. The sentence i wrote based on that makes that point of the Tsamko being associated with Albanian dances of that type, the Tsamiko. You want me to write it word for word. However don't complain after that it constitutes plagiarism. If you want to make it more precise we can include that it only applies to Tsamiko of North-western Greece. The source is available and i have given you the page numbers which is more than you have done by just plonking a weblink Lenis, and then saying go find it yourself, while making commentary.Resnjari (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the extended quote, but I fail to see anything that can support the above part in the text: Bolded parts #1, #2: offer the etymology of the name, #3 states that: "The words Tsamides and Tsamopoulo are also found in Greek folk song texts" (I fail to see how this affects the Tsamiko repertoire, else it would say that this words are found in Tsamiko songs). Bold text #4 compares the regional variates of Tsamiko. I'm sorry but this quote can not back the specific text (that... The dance is associated with the repertoire of music from the Albanian Cham people from Chameria).Alexikoua (talk) 22:06, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

My fault, i bolded the wrong bit. I was refering to this bit about the Albanian dance and Greek one (in the northern regions) being associated with each other. p. 16. "Finally, the term Tsamiko (referring specifically to that particular type of Greek folk song and its accompanying dance) is also used in Albania, though spelled Tchamicos.It must be especially emphasized, however, that the Albanian tchamicos and the tsamiko from Epirus and parts of Greek Macedonia are extremely similar, if not one of the same."Resnjari (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Yet this can be understood as: ..."a similar or the same dance is also danced by Albanians."Alexikoua (talk) 11:09, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Even with that wording it still means they are associated (with the northern Greek variety of Tsamiko), so that's fine. This dance in Albaanian goes by the main name of Çamçe, and then there is Valle Çame and yes Çamiko. More of a headache with these names. Wish villagers kept it simple. lol.Resnjari (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see the classification of Camce/Valle-Came/Camiko and Tchamicos and the connection between them in the available bibliography. Are by the way Camce and Tchamicos one the same or not? Alexikoua (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Its on page 14 where Koco discusses Camce and then in the following pages goes into Tsamiko, citing Chianis. Overall change is ok to article.Resnjari (talk) 14:12, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I also wonder how reliable can be an author when claiming that: There is an Albanian/Epirotic dance considered to be a remnant of the ancient Pyrrhic dance... The same work is mostly based on wp:FRINDGE historical claims (autochtonous Albanian populations of the Roman era, predominantly Illyrian inhabited southern Epirus as stated above etc etc). However a direct connection of Albanian dancing with ancient Greek dancing (no wonder the author even avoids to mention that Pyrrhic dance was an ancient Greek dance) makes it clear that this isn't a wp:RS work on the specific subject.Alexikoua (talk) 21:52, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Interesting wp:cherry picking. Whole sentence reads: "There is an Albanian/Epirotic dance considered to be a remnant of the ancient Pyrrhic dance that is, according to some authors, associated with present day Chamiko. I am guessing this part escaped your notice. And Koco continues to cite those authors, ones like Hughes, Sathas and so on. Koco is discussing the subject matter in the context of other scholarship/sources before going into his research, as one does when writing a scholarly piece of work (for more see: Scholarly method). Its why Koco writes as a disclaimer in that sentence which you cherry picked "according to some authors" indicating that it is not his view point or conclusion. I know your not fond of Koco (his credentials [3] and publishing house which book was published [4] and meets wp: reliable + secondary), however please read thoroughly as the source is available. Very recently you did not read or consult a source thoroughly and plagiarised verbatim content from that source (and giving the wrong page number too) and i had to clean it up [5]. Just saying for future reference, read source thoroughly before jumping to ad hoc conclusions. Best.Resnjari (talk) 01:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

It's more than obvious that the part in question (There is an Albanian/Epirotic dance considered to be a remnant of the ancient Pyrrhic dance) is the author's personal conclusion. Then he continues with various statements of 19th century authors to justify this opinion (obviously this kind of research doesn't follow wp:RS in wikipedia standarts). No this part is according to Koco and simply falls into wp:FRINDGE. Similarly the claims about Albanian autochtonous Roman-era populations and Illyrian domination in s. Epirus etc fall into the same category. Alexikoua (talk) 07:54, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

That's your conclusion. Koco discusses the Tsamiko by those who have discussed the matter before and uses a very large array sources. Its how scholarship is done. I am guessing your not familiar with the scholarly method. Agian pelase familarise yourself with the process. Also so what he cites 19th century authors. Kallivratakis does a similar thing on his demographic study of the Gjirokaster and Saranda citing 19th century Greek authors (yet you showed no qualms about using them for the Souliotes article [6] even though Kallivretakis notes they have issues). I am going to be restoring Koco to the article over the week as your editing and removal is within the context of wp:idontlikeit and POV. You have left only one reference to Koco within the article because it pertains to Baud-Bovy. Yet when Koco cites directly Greek scholars like Chianis (of which i based a large part of the sentences you deleted) they are not good enough ? Cherry picking again i take it ? Curious to know why ? You keep referring to Koco has made some claims about an Illyrian part of Epirus after doing aa snippet view and then claiming you looked at the text in general[7]. He cittes scholars like Hammond about a llyrian population living in Epirus Nova and some varying accounts regarding the Vetus part. Koco on page 7 refers to Albanians being driven south. He covers these things because he has to deal with the issues of shared similarities of music genres and traditions and how that might have emerged.[8], [9]. Koco's credentials hold up and you have not shown other academics offering a critique of his research or him as a scholar (like the ones that many editors use of say Vickers) etc. Find me something of this nature, not your personal opinions. Also Koco is respected by other academics such as the Cambridge trained Nitsiakos [10] who sought Koco's assistance for his fieldwork. Please read the book as many of its pages are accessible and there is not need do do a snippet view and make quite crude generalisations about Koco's scholarship. I await you reply and will check you you take other things out of context. I also have a hard copy of the book.Resnjari (talk) 14:39, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with wp:FRINDGE and this kind of fiction can't be considered scholarly work. You claim that ultranationalistic theories such as the Illyrian domination of southern Epirus are based on Hammond (?). However, mainstream scholarship disagrees with that (Hammond included). Not to mention the so-called "Albanian autocthony" claim of the specific author. Off course Koco and other wp:FRINDGE work can believe any 19th century work and declare that Tsamiko has "ancient Albanian/Epirotic roots", but if an editor insists in this quality of info it simply falls into wp:ILIKEIT. You also need to become familiar with wp:Five Pillars.Alexikoua (talk) 17:44, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

On Hammond, you have used him when it has suited your purposes [11], [12] in books that make such references about Illyrian issues (maybe you forgot to read those pages i guess using snippet view ?). Being "mainstream" or not did not bother you there or concluding that it was "fringe" in using those texts regarding other issues. In this article you removed content which did not even mention stuff relating to Illyrians, but Albanians and other issues in relation to the Tsamiko [13], [14] (You keep using the mention of Illyrians in Koco's book as somehow disqualifying overall use on the subject (i.e Tsamiko) of parts of the book that are relevant on the matter.) Its ok for you to use certain sources (and you are not a scholar), but when a accredited scholar uses the same sources its "fringe" ? Once again more of the wp:idontlikeit side ? By the way i have both copies of Hammond's books and whenever you decide to actually flick through the pages of Koco you will come across it. Please don't make up paraphrasings as Koco does not use the words "Albanian autocthony" in his work and the POV assessments you keep giving are without foundation such as "ultranationalistic" of Koco (which scholar has given this assessment of Koco ?). Also Koco does not state that "Tsamiko has "ancient Albanian/Epirotic roots"" (Again have you even read the book or consulted pages ? At least i did the courtesy of doing so regarding your sources so we could have a discussion on resolving issues). Koco cites Sathas, a Greek who makes references to such things and notes in his work that that is the positions of those people way before Koco who have discussed Tsamiko, not his. It was that sentence that you only cherry picked half of, the other overlooked half elaborated on it. Again, you have brought forth no smoking gun. I am aware of the wp:Five Pillars and that is why i am pursuing this matter here and your problematic edits. Deleted content will be re-added to the article as your rationale for deletion does not hold up. Resnjari (talk) 18:59, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Ignoring various rules in this project isn't a sound approach, but at least please respect wp:CIVIL: 1. Initially you ignored experienced admins on the subject (Fut.) by claiming that they need to take specific wp:rs into account. 2. The so-called wp:rs (Koco) is nothing more than the usual nationalist rhetoric about 'authochtonous Albanian populations of the Roman era', Illyrian dominance in southern Epirus and than an Albanian/Epirotic dance comes from the Phyrric dance. 3. Hammond says nothing about Illyrian presence in southern Epirus. If you have full access to Hammond's work that's good for you. Don't be afraid to make use of it in your research.Alexikoua (talk) 20:52, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

On sources i like to be precise due to the insistence of it over time by some editors who on occasion have shown to be selective or hypocritical when purporting to employ that principle in some of their edits and taking a 'moral' high ground with editors. Also i follow the rules and have gone by them (for future reference, going by the rules applies for all like not plagarising). For Fut to make that determination it has to be done at the reliable noticeboards at the very least and when i brought up the issue no one commented and the discussion on that noticeboard went idle. I can bring it up again. Also that editor/admin no longer participated in the discussion on the article talkpage. He also bought up youtube videos as sources and evidence when Wikipedia guidelines advise that doing so can be problematic at the very least and best avoided. If Fut wants to participate in the discussion that's fine with me. Once again you resort to referring to Koco making "the usual nationalist rhetoric about 'authochtonous Albanian populations of the Roman era'." I typed the word "autochthonous" into the search. On page 12, the word is used by Baud Bovy (someone which you seem to approve of) and on page 67 and 159 the word is used in relation to south Illyria and not Epirus (neither to Vetus or Nova) for one and in relation to the emergence of the Vlachs and Albanian speakers (Koco does not even use the word Albanians, but Albanian speakers here). These types of references have been made in works of Hamp, and others in the wider discussion of Albanian origins alongside or from Latinate populations and they are not precluded in Wikipedia usage. How is this a sign of the "usual nationalist rhetoric about 'authochtonous Albanian populations of the Roman era', Illyrian dominance in southern Epirus"'"? Koco also makes no reference to Albanian speakers dominating anything in regards to what your referring to. Albanians have come from somewhere and scholars are allowed to discuss this within the context of scholarship and many have. Also all this talk of Illyrians has nothing to do with this article. You deleted much content on sentences that i based on Sotirios Chianis. Chianis is not a 19th century "author", but a Greek scholar who spent the 1960s conducting research on Tsamiko [15] and is cited directly in passages within Koco. In none of my sentences did i cite Illyrians and almost all of the sentences i wrote within the article were sentences based on him, so why did you delete them while keeping material based on Baud Bovy (who did his research at around the same time) ?Resnjari (talk) 21:41, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

The fact that this article has been targeted by the usual national rhetoric should not be used as an excuse to ignore the proposal of experienced admins (Fut. deals with this pattern and comments in this talkpage from 2009 by the way). If an experienced editor states 1. that this dance is in 3/4 meter, 2. not danced among Albanians (although may have some similarities) 3. supported by wp:RS (Baud-Bovy Lenis etc.) he has a good reason. On the other hand the supposed wp:RS that among other inaccuracies and wp:FRINDGE supports the idea of "autochthonous Albanian speakers" of the Roman-era isn't a serious arguments (not to mention that the ancient Pyrrihios link with modern Albanian dancing can be a good addition for unencyclopedia). You need to understand the concept of bothWikipedia:Fringe theories and wp:RS. I've already provided some examples of wp:RS like Hammond. If you still have any further questions fell free to comment to the correspondent noticeboards.Alexikoua (talk) 11:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Because we are experienced editors that using Youtube to override scholarly works is very problematic and Fut. comments in 2009 were not in relation to Koco (don't conflate the two). I will use the noticeboards. Once again you have not addressed why you deleted sentences which were based on Chianis ? Is there a issue regarding Sotirios Chianis ? If you don't reply on this i will be restoring back nearly all edits. I am not against Baud-Bovy. I was merely highlighting what you like over what you don't like from the very same source (Chianis and Baud-Bovy don't conflict by the way). Also again a scholar like Koco can discuss the issues of Albanian origins in the wider study of content they are looking at. You keep coming back to the matter on the "Pyrrihios link" however Koco does NOT claim that as his conclusion and states that very clearly, something that would be apparent if one read it. It was Stathas, a Greek researcher who made that claim. Once again you need to familiarise yourself with the scholarly method and how scholarship is done. I understand the concept of fringe theories and POV. When some time back i placed to you that Greek histories using the pejorative words Turko-alvanoi or Turk-Albanians was problematic because wp:RS noted it being a siginifer of nationalistic Greek historiographies (and i gave a source to you for that) you ignored it and said well that hows Greeks talk about Albanians. Yet here you smeared a academic's work through terms like "ultranationalistic"' by means of cherry picking without not even providing a source and so on. Just trying to figure out your editing style. Plagarising one minute, deeming histories that use nationalistic terminology as right the next and smearing others that don't conform to your liking on others. Fascinating.Resnjari (talk) 12:55, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

1. Fut's comments are supported by wp:SECONDARY and wp:ACADEMIC (Lenis, Baud-Bovy etc. which I've kindly provided as requested by you), 2. youtube samples simply confirm this point. 3. Fut. since 2009 kindly replies to this kind of national paranoia that this science fiction (claimed among other by Koco) is wp:FRINGE. Also note that the concept of "autohtonous presence of Roman-era Albanian speakers" is fringe too. It's not supported by Hammond by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 17:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Youtube is not a reliable source. Secondly Fut used Youtube for the Pisterick issue, not this. You keep saying fringe yet the sentences where based on Chianis which is directly cited in Koco. You would know this if you have consulted the accessible source. No where did sentences in this article include anything about Illyrians and you have used the issue to cherry pick and remove cited content meeting wp: reliable and secondary. On "national paranoia", once again your personal interpretations or POV. You have not provided anything that calls into disrepute Koco as an academic, the publishing house his book was published etc. There are noticeboards as you said and events will move there in the near future.Resnjari (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

youtube simply confirms wp:SECONDARY and wp:ACADEMIC that have been provided. The possible similarity between Tsamiko and Osmantaka has been already stated in detail.Alexikoua (talk) 09:24, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guidelines on Youtube are: WP:YT and WP:YTREF. From the second it notes that Anyone can create a website or video and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For this reason, self-published media as seen on YouTube are often not acceptable sources. Those videos from youtube are from village or other gathering performances with the author being unknown (even if a name is provided who are they, are they a scholar, researcher, someone who meets the requirements of verifiablity?). Those performances were used in the talkpage to override wp:reliable + wp:secondary material. Wikipedia states clearly that wp:reliable and wp:secondary comes before all other sources since your a experienced editor you know this well. At the very least if the youtube author was like an academic who placed that material on there and stated clearly who he/she is then it would be inline with what your saying and even within the guideline on youtube usage. Otherwise, heck i can place videos up from village dances and claim its this or that dance. You still have not answered why you deleted most of the sentences in this article that i wrote which were based on direct and dense quotations of Chianis (who makes no mention of "Illyrians") in Koco (since you left Baud-Bovy.)? Both did their research at around the same time and it does not conflict with each other nor with the more recent sources you came across later and added.Resnjari (talk) 12:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The concept of the supposed similarities between Tsamiko and some dance known to Albanian communities too (Osmantaka) is addressed by wp:ACADEMIC and wp:SECONDARY (no wonder youtube can easily confirm wp:RS on musicology). There is no need of fringe theories.Alexikoua (talk) 13:10, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The sentences you deleted that i based on Chianis were not about Osman Taka. They were about Tsamiko itself, its many variances, complexities, names in regional contexts etc. Have you read pages 14-16 ? They are accessible. On Youtube, i will cite another part of the guidelines (WP:YTREF): "Self-published videos may be used as sources of information about their creator if they meet the requirements seen at restrictions on using self-published sources.". On guidelines that relate to wp:secondary: "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." How are the video postings on youtube verifiable for one (who are their authors) and why should they override and trump scholarship ? Your whole contention regarding "fringe" was about Illyrian issues which relate to two sentences overall. Koco was discussing the matter of Albanian origins and contacts with Latinate populations (Albanians share similar musical repertoires with for example Aromanians and the book is about music of the area after all). Many scholars in the West have discussed Albanian origins and they don't constitute "fringe" when those scholars seem to be applicable for other uses (as i have noted above). When you refer to Osman Taka, you move the goal post again. Koco in relation to that dance was referring to Osman Taka as a subdance of the Albanian Camce variation which in the context of Tsamiko are related but not the same dance. This is made clear in the book. Please consult the pages. They are only three in relation to this dance and wont take up much time.Resnjari (talk) 16:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The fact that Tsamiko in Epirus is a 3/4 dance (like the standard version of southern Greece) is confirmed by several wp:RS, like Lenis, Papageorgiou ([[16]]), Kokkonis [[17]] p. 62). Lenis even offers a huge list of Epirotic discography where all local Tsamiko variants are in 3/4 meter. On the other hand Koco believes that: "In Epirus, the music of the Tsamiko is set in either 4/4, 5/4, 7/4 or 8/4 metres". Needless to say that this is wp:FRINGE.Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Koco cites Chianis. That still does not make the Koco's book fringe (considering even in your sentence refinements you kept some number of sentences that where based on Chianis). Chianis work dates to the 1960s, these others that you cite are from recent times clarifying things more). For a long time only Chianis' study of Tsamiko was the main one. The main aspect here is you deleted one sentence in particuular which discussed the relationship of Epirote Tsamiko with its Albanian counterpart the "Chamiko" (p.16 -also Chianis)? Why was that deleted?Resnjari (talk) 22:23, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

You fail to support your argument but still insist on further wp:OR ("For a long time only Chianis' study of Tsamiko was the main one." is your personal opinion). Modern research in the music of Epirus: Lenis, Kokkonis and Papageorgiou describes the Epirus Tsamiko as a 3/4 metre dance. Chianis' work was not focused at the music of Epirus (even Koco admits that if you take a look at his book). In general we should prefer specialized works on the subject in case we have this option. Moreover, in the detailed list of Epirotic discography provided by Lenis not a single Epirus Tsamiko agrees with the metres given by Koco.Alexikoua (talk) 16:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Ok. What about the bit relating to the relationship between Epirote Tsamiko and Albanian Chamiko ? I take it that sentence gets restored as no other study to date that you provided refutes what Chianis states?Resnjari (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Osmantaka (a 4/4 dance) "if" considered a Tsamiko variant (you provided a source which classifies both O.T. and Berati in a wide definition of the Tsamiko genre) is also related to the older Camce dance (based on Koco I assume?). Thus, that's the only possible connection we have. However, a 3/4 dance like the Epirotic Tsamiko can't be "extremely similar or the same" to a 4/4, 5/4, 7/4 or 8/4 metre dance. I assume you can understand this last fact.Alexikoua (talk) 19:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Not referring to Osmantaka. Epirote Greek Tsamiko and the Albanian Chamiko. Nothing about Osman Taka. Chainis refers discuss those dances and i had a sentences based on it and removed it.Resnjari (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Exactly how Alexikoua said it. Please we need stick to the facts. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I am. Funny how you are commenting on all topics that i am involved in recent times. Interesting isn't it.Resnjari (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

What else did you expect, my dear, from the moment there is activity in my Watchlist's talk articles? This talk is on my Help:Watchlist and I ain't removing them anytime soon. It can't be helped, can it? :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 01:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Just so people know i don't date anyone who is active on Wikipedia. No need for "dear". Thank you. Well it could also be wp:hounding. Well everyone has a benefit of the doubt i guess.Resnjari (talk) 08:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, dear Resnjari, everyone has the benefit of doubt, but it is not uncommon to see me in the Balkan-related articles, as you may have noticed already in the past. But I am afraid that the constant bad faith assumptions and indimitations (imaginary OR cases, imaginary Houding cases, imaginary Anti-Muslim racism, and more) against other editors interested in Balkan-related articles, like this one, with the aim of discouraging them from participating in such discussions in the future, amounts as WP:AOHA and WP:PERSONAL, which can result in blocks and bans. Which I am sure you know already, don't you? Constant assumptions of WP:BADFAITH of others Wikipedians and personal attacks against them aren't helpful. Please stick to the discussion. :) -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:47, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Request

Is there a way - I can link to the information shared about the dance tsamikos but discuss it's regional differences in execution, improvisation, music styles, etc. As a Tsamikos from Central and Southern Greece is very different from a Tsamikos in Northern Greece, women's variations are different from the men's etc. I want to link these to the research and of course videos of the various versions. Is there a way someone could help me with this - I'm not very wiki friendly, haven't been on here for a while... Greekdancer (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi. We could certainly include such information, provided the sources you have meet our standards of reliability – i.e. we need book or journal publications discussing these dance styles, not just videos demonstrating them. Please note that I had to revert your changes just now, firstly because the additions were still unsourced and secondly because you accidentally(?) removed all the existing content of the article when inserting yours. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)