Talk:Turkic History

Problematic article

This article reads like a Pan-Turkist propaganda pamphlet than a wikipedia's article:

• Inappropriate tone, e.g.:

  • this race [sic] had a warrior and nomadic culture

  • The history of all people that emerged in Eurasia and North Africa has been affected by the movements of the Turks from afar and close. Turks also played an important role in bringing Eastern cultures to the West and Western cultures to the East. Their own religion became the pioneer and defender of the foreign religions they adopted after Tengrism, and they helped their spread and development (Mani religion, Judaism, Buddhism, Orthodox, Nestorian Christianity and Islam).

• Unsourced maps;
• At least one unreliable source, e.g.:
  • Türklerin ve Tatarların Kökeni, s. 143-178, Selenge Yayınları, Ağustos 2007 by pseudo-scholar Mirfatyh Zakiev;
• Cherry-picking sources and probably misinterpreting sources to push WP:Fringe, e.g.:

  • Most scholars believe that the Turks first appeared on the stage of history as a political community during the reign of the Huns (Hiung-nu or Shiongnu).

• Unsourced claims pushing WP:Fringe, consistent with LTA Tirgil34's MO (e.g. "Claiming that various Indo-European cultures of Central Asia, like the Yamna culture, the Afanasevo culture, the Andronovo culture and the Karasuk culture, were of Turkic origin."), e.g.:

  • It is argued that the ancestors of the Turks started with the Afanasievo culture between 2500 BC and 1700 BC and continued with the Andronovo culture between 1700 BC and 1200 BC.

    • which contradicts reliably-sourced statements found in Andronovo culture

      • It is almost universally agreed among scholars that the Andronovo culture was Indo-Iranian.

    • & Afanasievo culture

      • The authors conclude that the Afanasievo people were Indo-Europeans, perhaps ancestors of the Tocharians.

Other editors, e.g. @Krakkos:, @Qiushufang:, @HistoryofIran:, @Whhu22:, etc., what to do with this article? I'm thinking of copy-pasting well-sourced materials from Turkic peoples#History.

References

Erminwin (talk) 17:26, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This article is indeed dubious. Erminwin's proposal sounds like a good idea. Krakkos (talk) 17:42, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah either that or completely delete this article. It adds zero to Wikipedia, and may encourage others to add this to other articles. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

So when we read that your complain about article, you just don't like it. WP:JDLI Wickelodeon (talk) 20:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

At least one unreliable source?

• R. Grousset, L'Empire des steppes, Paris, 1960
• DE. Guignes, Histoire generale *des Huns des Turcs et des Mongols, Paris, 1756.
• Jean-Paul Roux, Historie des Turcs, 1984.
• Jean-Paul Roux, Timur, 1994.
• Fayard Paris, Historie des Turcs, 1984.
• D.Sinor, Aspects of Altaic Civilization, 1963.
• M. Barthold, Turkestan down to the Mongol Invansıon, Londra, 1968.
• E. Berl, Historie de l'Europe d'Attila a Tamerlan, Paris, 1946.
• M.A. Czaplıcka, The Turks of Central Asia in History and at the Present Day, Oxford, 1918.
• W. Eberhard, Kultur und Siedlung der Randvölker China, 1942.
• L. Hambis, La Haute-Asie, Paris, 1953.
• Hammer-Purgstall, Von, Historie de l'Empire ottoman depuis son origine jusqu!a nos jours, Paris, 1835.
• H.H. Howorth, History of the Mongols, Londra, 1876.

But no, they funded by Turko-Persian goverment unlike our glorious Iranian storytelle.. historians. Also Turkicness of Xiognhu's are fringe theory as Iranianness of Sakas. Its one of the strong theories for predicted race of that state.

Wickelodeon (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he meant cited sources. Also, please keep your personal opinion to yourself and don't randomly make silly accusations, see WP:SOAPBOX, WP:OR, WP:GOODFAITH, and WP:FORUM. NOTE: This user just recently attempted to alter sourced information. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:: By "at least one unreliable source" I meant:

pseudo-scholar Mirfatyh Zakiev's book Türklerin ve Tatarların Kökeni, s. 143-178, Selenge Yayınları, Ağustos 2007 (which is cited & for which there exists an Engish translation by Norm Kisamov in Kisamov's pseudoscientific blog turkicworld.org (blacklisted); if anybody'd be curious enough to read it).

Hasan Celal Güzel, Kemal Çiçek, Salim Koca Türkler Ansiklopedisi, Adana, 2002 (which is mentioned in Turkish book section but not cited inline), whose volume 1 contains this Şevket Koçsoy's article "Türk Tarihi Kronolojisi / Sevket Koçsoy [s.73-188]" (pp. 34-248) (readable here), which seemingly claims that various peoples and cultures were either proto-Turks or Turks: Anau, Afanasievo, Andronovo, Scythians/Sakas, etc. and even... Zhou dynasty (I admit that I cannot read Turkish & used Google translate to understand it; still I think it very unlikely that Şevket Koçsoy did not make those Pan-Turkist claims yet Google translate indicates that he did). Erminwin (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I see, this is quite problematic. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:02, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, this discussion is stuck in this redirect, I have therefore moved it [1]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:45, 2 May 2022 (UTC)