Move in July 2010
editWhy was this page moved from the disambiguation page (now at Turntable (disambiguation) to redirect to Phonograph in July 2010 with no discussion or consensus? I don't necessarily disagree with the move, but I think it should have been discussed. --Tkynerd (talk) 04:11, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- It looks to me as if Railway turntable should have been left at its previous title of Turntable (rail), as the new title seems to be an invented phrase and not the commonly used term for a turntable in the railway setting. That then makes it seem all the clearer that there is no primary usage for "Turntable", and the dab page should remain at the title Turntable. PamD 08:52, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- That is a side issue here, and even more of a side issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains. It needs to be discussed at Talk:Railway turntable, not here. --Tkynerd (talk) 16:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- What do phonographs have to do with railways? The primary topic (if any) of the string of letters "turntable" would need to be discussed here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:49, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- That is a side issue here, and even more of a side issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains. It needs to be discussed at Talk:Railway turntable, not here. --Tkynerd (talk) 16:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- The change of July 2010 was undiscussed, yes, but was stable for a year and a half, which is sufficient to be assumed a consensus. The change of Dec 4, 2011, resulted in a WP:MALPLACED disambiguation page. In order to effect the desired change, the disambiguation needs to be moved back to this article, or the discussion here can determine a redirect target for a new primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:53, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- If I had been active on Wikipedia when that change was made, I would have raised the issue immediately so discussion could be had and consensus reached. I know what WP:Consensus says, but I think silence is a poor substitute for actual consensus. Do you have an opinion about where Turntable should go, or should I just read it into your recent edits to this page (which isn't a dig; nothing wrong with that at all)? Personally I feel comfortable that Phonograph is the primary topic, even though it makes it impossible to easily fix incorrect links to the page (which was easy when Turntable itself was the dab page), but I want to hear any other views on this. --Tkynerd (talk) 19:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- I have no preference on which if any article is primary. My recent edits were spurred by its appearance on the WP:MALPLACED list, and phonograph appeared to be a plausible primary topic (as you note). -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- May I suggest that the best answer would be to convert the present redirect page into a short article - along the lines of Turntable - a revolving platform, table, stand, or disk of various kinds. Explaining that the term could be used in a variety of different ways, and giving the appropriate links. The article could cite the use of turntable in funerals, gunnery, photography, microscopy, shop window displays, as well as the common uses in railways and in recorded music. This short article would serve the purpose of a disambiguation page, but without being one so would not get on the WP:MALPLACED list. Would that be an acceptable alternative?
- I have no preference on which if any article is primary. My recent edits were spurred by its appearance on the WP:MALPLACED list, and phonograph appeared to be a plausible primary topic (as you note). -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- If I had been active on Wikipedia when that change was made, I would have raised the issue immediately so discussion could be had and consensus reached. I know what WP:Consensus says, but I think silence is a poor substitute for actual consensus. Do you have an opinion about where Turntable should go, or should I just read it into your recent edits to this page (which isn't a dig; nothing wrong with that at all)? Personally I feel comfortable that Phonograph is the primary topic, even though it makes it impossible to easily fix incorrect links to the page (which was easy when Turntable itself was the dab page), but I want to hear any other views on this. --Tkynerd (talk) 19:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
--Das48 (talk) 01:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is more or less the way the page looked before the move of July 2010 (although I don't think all the areas you mention were covered; see Turntable (disambiguation)), but having read and considered WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it's difficult for me to deny that Phonograph is the primary topic here. I wish it weren't, because I worry about erroneous incoming links (mostly from railway articles) and having this as a dab page made them easier to find and fix, but I really think the current state of affairs is appropriate. --Tkynerd (talk) 01:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am sure you are right so long as the Turntable is a redirect page, but if it was an article in its own right then WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would no longer apply.--Das48 (talk) 01:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're saying. Here's what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says: Although a word, name or phrase may refer to more than one topic, it is sometimes the case that one of these topics is the primary topic. If a primary topic exists, then that term should be the title of the article on that topic (or should redirect to an article on that topic that uses a different, more appropriate title). Which means that Turntable could either be an article page or a redirect, assuming it is the primary topic. I think the reason it's a redirect is that Phonograph already existed and its title is unambiguous. --Tkynerd (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- As I read it, if there was a separate 'Turntable' article about the device for playing gramophone records within a phonograph or as a component part of a music centre, then WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would apply, but there is no such article. Instead there is a link to the phonograph article which is related but not directly synonymous. If you follow this logic you would also need to scrap the WP pages for 'Play' or for 'Tape' and countless others.--Das48 (talk) 04:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- No. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies to any ambiguous article title (or potential article title) for which one topic is "primary," in the sense outlined at that link. It doesn't matter whether there is an article or a redirect at that title. Again: If a primary topic exists, then that term should be the title of the article on that topic (or should redirect to an article on that topic that uses a different, more appropriate title). (Emphasis mine.)
- Phonograph is, of course, synonymous with the primary topic meaning of turntable, so what you're talking about there I can't imagine. That's why there's a redirect here. --Tkynerd (talk) 23:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- As I read it, if there was a separate 'Turntable' article about the device for playing gramophone records within a phonograph or as a component part of a music centre, then WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would apply, but there is no such article. Instead there is a link to the phonograph article which is related but not directly synonymous. If you follow this logic you would also need to scrap the WP pages for 'Play' or for 'Tape' and countless others.--Das48 (talk) 04:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're saying. Here's what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says: Although a word, name or phrase may refer to more than one topic, it is sometimes the case that one of these topics is the primary topic. If a primary topic exists, then that term should be the title of the article on that topic (or should redirect to an article on that topic that uses a different, more appropriate title). Which means that Turntable could either be an article page or a redirect, assuming it is the primary topic. I think the reason it's a redirect is that Phonograph already existed and its title is unambiguous. --Tkynerd (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am sure you are right so long as the Turntable is a redirect page, but if it was an article in its own right then WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would no longer apply.--Das48 (talk) 01:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is more or less the way the page looked before the move of July 2010 (although I don't think all the areas you mention were covered; see Turntable (disambiguation)), but having read and considered WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it's difficult for me to deny that Phonograph is the primary topic here. I wish it weren't, because I worry about erroneous incoming links (mostly from railway articles) and having this as a dab page made them easier to find and fix, but I really think the current state of affairs is appropriate. --Tkynerd (talk) 01:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC)