Talk:Turntable.fm

Cornell

Hi all! I would like to propose the expansion that my group and I are planning to make to this article for a school project at Cornell. First of all, we will add many more details in a section about what users actually do on the site and how it all works. Another section will give more information on the relatively short history of the website, discussing such topics as the creators and their background as well as the legality of the website and how it uses all the music. Unless it ends up needing its own section, part of this will include information about the investments Turntable.fm has received so far and its rising popularity over this past summer (with lots of interesting facts like how Kanye West and Lady Gaga invested). One more possible section can be about how both the website and the users can connect to and use various other social networks. Please let me know if you have any suggestions!

-Dqmcmanus (talk) 01:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Hallo! Your idea certainly sounds like a good one, provided that you follow our basic content policies. In a nutshell, they are:

Verifiability—this is probably the biggest one, especially on internet-related articles. Essentially, it means that all information in a Wikipedia article has to be cited to a reliable source that verifies that claim made.

There can't be any original research, which is information that someone came up with on their own, in the article. For example, you couldn't say that "Turntable.fm allows users to share music through Twitter" (I have no idea if it does or not, it's just an example) on the basis that you were using the website and saw a Twitter link; you'd have to find a source, say a review or something that made note of that feature (which may or may not exist).

Neutral point of view—pretty self-explanatory, it basically means that what is written can't be promoting or criticizing of the subject of the article. A specific section on criticism is allowed, so long as it's based off of specific criticism by reliable sources and doesn't give undue weight to the criticisms. What isn't acceptable is something like "Turntable.fm is the best music site in the world and I love it so much because it's awesome" or "Turntable.fm sucks and I don't like it because it's awful." Those are rather extreme examples, but they're the general idea.

If you have any questions about what I've mentioned already, or other things that I didn't think of, feel free to either reply here or at my talk page. C628 (talk) 02:24, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for your suggestions! I appreciate the help and will certainly follow these guidelines as I work on the article. Dqmcmanus (talk) 17:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Comm 3460 Observers

• http://venturebeat.com/2011/07/21/turntable-fm-lands-big-licensing-agreement-with-bmi/ This article contains a lot of relevant info about how turntable.fm (legally) shares music, and acquired rights to over 6.5 million songs through a deal with BMI. Concerning the deal, Richard Conlon, BMI's Senior Vice President, said in a statement, “This agreement is yet another step in our long tradition of breaking new ground in licensing music for digital distribution.” The article also mentions that the site has now (as of July 21st) over 300,000 registered users.

Jtemiller (talk) 19:39, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• http://blog.turntable.fm/ You might have already but the blog associated with the site might give you some additional inspiration for article sections, especially if you're creating a history section. I would also suggest a "How it Works" section because I know that, as a user myself, I'm still pretty confused by it. I know you gave a basic rundown in the opening paragraph but maybe an exact play-by-play of how to get the most points and become a leader. Their blog also speaks a lot about the concept of "Real-Life Turntable.fm parties" so that could be a section if you were looking for other brief applications of the site. Bethjaco (talk) 00:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• http://allthingsd.com/20110621/turntable-fm-really-is-awesome-is-it-legal/ The article is coming along really nicely. Your citations and references are very organized and the provided information of the cite is informative. As a suggestion, you guys should look into adding more headlines throughout your page. Some headlines you can include are history, legality, usability, social, etc. The website I have attached to this comment gives information about the legal nature of turntable.fm. It's helpful in explaining the "back story", regulations, or limitations involved in the site as a whole. Keep up the good work! kwolf713 (talk) 21:22, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Hey guys! Thanks for all your suggestions. I think some of you might have been looking at the existing stub -- check out below, it is where we will actually be working on the article revamp for a little bit. You'll see then that I had already had some of your ideas! Such as some of the sections and even articles you suggested using haha. Thank you though! Dqmcmanus (talk) 01:32, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Guys, this is really coming along so far. Just wanted to bring your attention to the fact that Rolling Stone has a pretty intense fascination with turntable.fm. I've seen it featured in a bunch of their print issues, and links to the digital article equivalents are available through Google if you just search "turntable.fm rolling stone." However, what I specifically wanted to bring your attention to is this article. I guess some "copycat killers" may be afoot. Do you think this will affect the appeal of turntable.fm? Do you think users might migrate to new imitation services, similar to the movement from Facebook to Google+? Just some food for thought. Jasonmarder (talk) 03:51, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Looks good, maybe you can add some sections on some particular rooms which are manned by notable groups online. --Lenwomp (talk) 17:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Good job so far. I like the sections you have written below and your integration of outside sources. A couple of more ideas for sections can be what they are working on for future expansion and how it is they are thinking of staying unique as people build similar sites. Also, you might wanna check out the categories which every wikipage has to tie it to larger sections. This might belong to an existing set of wikipages, such as music sites. Jlazoff (talk) 16:03, 03 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback guys, I think we've incorporated many of your ideas including the legal sources and some of the notable platforms and rooms provided by the service. I didn't know there was a turntable blog that was run by the devs so that was really useful to look over. I think, if anything, we have more information now than might be preferable, with little tidbits of facts strewn about the page, but I'll leave it up to the wiki community to decide if this information is pertinent or not. Thanks again for going all out!--Ejs296 (talk) 17:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Expansion in Progress

Over the next few days, my group and I will use this section to put together out proposed expansion for this article. As we work on it, feel free to leave comments and suggestions, and once it becomes complete enough we will move the work to the real page and replace the stub. Thank you! Dqmcmanus (talk) 00:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

We are now moving this article onto the main article space, so the most updated version will be there instead of the draft version below. Please leave any comments if you have problems or suggestions with this action or about the article at all! Dqmcmanus (talk) 02:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Turntable.fm

Available in	English
Created by	Billy Chasen
URL	turntable.fm
Registration	Requires faceboook account
Launched	January 2011 (2011-01)
Current status	Active

Lead Section

• how the site works, generally; maybe the existing stub is pretty good for this section as is? I will add it here for now, and we can alter it as we like, and go into the details in following sections

Turntable.fm is a social media website that allows users to interactively share music. The website is run by Billy Chasen, who started it in January 2011, using revenue generated by his previous start-up to fund Turntable.fm. The service allows users to create "rooms," which other users can join. Designated users, so-called "DJs," choose songs to be played to everyone in that room, while all users are able to talk with one other through a text interface. The service opened to the public in May 2011, and by late June had already reached 140,000 active users. The company uses the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to license the music that is played on the website; because of this, only individuals from the United States are allowed to use the service.

Usage

Turntable.fm "combines music-streaming, chat rooms, and voting" by simulating a virtual environment filled with audience members and DJs represented by player avatars. Rooms are set up around certain musical genres, moods, or real-world atmospheres. When users are present in a particular room, they are represented by their avatar who appears as either being an attendant in the audience or playing music as a DJ on stage. The room automatically cycles through new DJs, who decides what song every user in the room listens to. The DJ either provides a song that they possess on their local computer or may select a song from Turntable.fm's library,

The users who are in the audience vote on songs that are currently being played by a DJ, either by clicking the "lame" or "awesome" buttons. Too many "lame" votes triggers the room to skip to the next DJ while "awesome" votes gives DJ points to the current DJ. More DJ points allow for users to unlock additional avatars. The service additionally allows users to chat in the rooms and to "follow" other users.

DJ "Woooooo," a developer for other music-related apps, is the most followed DJ on Turntable.fm with over 5,000 fans and 43,000 DJ points as of September, 2011. "Woooooo" believes he has risen to fame within the Turntable community due to his self-attested "delicate mix of popular songs and experimental tracks." He claims that the turntable community can be "fickle" because of their desire for different sounding songs that fit the "vibe" of the room but works within the constraints of the genre.

History

Turntable.fm was founded in May 2011 by Billy Chasen and Seth Goldstein, the co-founders of the company Stickybits. Stickybits was a mobile app with which brands could stick QR codes on their products and allow users to scan them for rewards. While Stickybits was picked up by some brands, it failed to gain the widespread attraction of users. By January 2011 it became clear that Stickybits would not work, so Chasen and Goldstein presented their investors with the idea of turntable.fm By May, turntable.fm was released, and within weeks the site went viral with such celebrities as Sir Mix-A-Lot using it. The board then pulled the plug on Stickybits and went ahead with turntable.fm.

By July 2011, turntable.fm raised a $7 million round at a $35 million valuation in a funding led by Fred Wilson at Union Square Ventures. All initial investors of Stickybits were involved in the round, including First Round Capital, Polaris Venture Partners, and Lowercase Ventures. A number of entertainment executives have also invested, including Lady Gaga's manager, Kanye West, Troy Carter, MTV's Courtney Holt, former Facebook executive Tim Kendall, The Roots, and Madonna's manager, Guy Oseary. As of September 2011, turntable.fm has been used by over 600,000 people and streams around 1 million songs per day.

On July 28, 2011, a turntable.fm dance party was held in New York City which simulated the features of the website in real life. DJ's were chosen from an applicant pool prior to the party and were allowed to play songs in turns during the celebration. DJ's were rewarded with "points" for how many patrons were on the dance floor during a given DJ's song and they may have their turn skipped over if not enough interest was shown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejs296 (talk • contribs) 03:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Legal

Turntable originally had no deals in place with any record labels, and was instead operating under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The company does have a deal with MediaNet that provides them with millions of songs, which are what users can build their playlists with if they do not wish to upload their own music.

Turntable has models of many other music streaming website to follow and learn from in striving to avoid any legal issues, the key to which is to be a "non-interactive" web radio service. One such model is Pandora, which also operates under Section 114 of the DMCA and pays music owners a flat fee for every song that gets streamed each month. Another example of successful DMCA compliance comes from 8tracks, which takes several measures to remain a "non-interactive Webcaster" such as not showing all of the tracks on somebody's mix until the user plays it, limiting how many songs by one artist can be included in a mix, and not letting users go back in a mix without reloading the whole thing.

Similarly, Turntable has taken measures to attempt to ensure DMCA compliance. First of all, only US residents can use the service in order for it to follow the DMCA. The site has also made key constraints in a similar manner to 8tracks, including prohibiting users from playing music in a room by themselves, limiting the number of times one can play a song every hour, and not letting people see the songs that will be played next. One potential problem in achieving this compliance is that while sites like 8tracks have users upload their own music, Turntable also provides songs to its users.

Following this period of operating in a "legally dubious gray area" and relying on DMCA compliance, Rolling Stone reported on July 20 that the site had officially signed a deal with the ASCAP that ensured songwriters, composers and publishers would be appropriately compensated for their works being used on Turntable, effectively making the site completely legal.

Connections/Integrations

When users were first able to access the Turntable beta , the only way to log in was by using your Facebook credentials, and only if you had another Facebook friend who was already a Turnable user. Chasen announced that as of September 23, 2011, the site dropped the requirement of needing a Facebook friend already on Turntable in order to use it. If you have Facebook friends online on Turntable while you are, it will show you what room they are in so you can join them.

Turntable released an iPhone app in September 2011, accessible with any iOS device with iOS 4.0 or greater. While some features like creating and joining a group take a bit longer, the iOS app has all features available on the desktop version.

While listening to a song, users can hover over the DJ panel booth to see connections to other music services such as Spotify, ITunes, and Last.fm and click on the icon to add the current track to their account with that program. Additionally, there are buttons at the top of the rooms for various social networks like Facebook and Twitter, as well as email and Permalink, so users can share the room they are in with their friends.

References

Room Advertising

Removed the paragraph under Usage detailing DJ Wooooo. It reads like blatant self-promotion, which is absolutely not allowed on Wikipedia. If any of you think it should still be included, I'd like to hear the reasoning. — Lelandrb (talk • contribs) 06:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Removed spam about joining another room on the now defunct turntable.fm

Edit warring over founding

Paging User:2003:D4:6F1C:4B1F:4D03:E585:91BE:645 and User:Ch5833 to hash this out on the talk page instead of reverting each other. Not entirely sure what's going on between you two but this is important:

• Changes need to be verifiable from reliable sources. That highscalability.com blog post is not even close.
• WP:OUTING is forbidden on Wikipedia. Do not disclose personal information about users.

Please discuss the issue here before reverting any more edits.

Blackguard 19:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Regarding this page

Paging User:MelanieN -- There is clearly an edit war between people close to this page, but you've locked it at a version that is the most disputable. There is no record of Joseph Perla being a co-founder of turntable.fm, except for articles written in 2021 (which are referencing his edits to this Wikipedia.) If you search for articles anywhere from its founding (2011 - 2014) ([1] vs [2] you will see the situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frontduck45 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Adding edit request template, courtesy pinging MelanieN as original request was not signed. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Hello, Frontduck45. I am not the person to talk to about the content of the article; I am not involved with the content. My only role here was to stop the unacceptable edit warring. If you have an objection to some of the content, say it here on the talk page, but address it to the other editors here who have disagreed with you. Show your evidence, in the form of Reliable Sources, and prove your point. I will ping some of the other recently involved editors so they can come here and discuss: Poppified, EDG 543. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

P.S. Just a thought: I would suggest that instead of arguing about the founders, people update the article with recent developments, for example [3], [4], [5], [6]. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Frontduck45, I have no idea regarding the truthfulness of the information. I stumbled upon the yesterday evening while patrolling the recent changes and encountered an edit war. One IP had removed the info regarding the two additional co-founders, but didn't explain why it was removed, so I reverted. Then they reverted my edit and claimed that their were no sources, but two sources were included, so I added it back and requested page protection. I'm not sure if the info is factual or not, I was just never supplied with a good reason for it to be removed yesterday. I myself have no connection to the subject of the article whatsoever and had never even heard of it until yesterday. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 16:45, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Frontduck45, Same as EDG 543 said. When I came here during my patrol there was edit war between two IP users so I just reverted it.Because I saw there is no reason remove those as sources mentioned about them in the article.Also I don't know about this FM.I reverted the edit and left. ThanksPoppified ^talk 17:17, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Poppified, EDG 543 - Thank you for the clarification. I understand that you were responding to a situation, but now that that is over, the article is inaccurate. If the goal is to try to keep Wikipedia as accurate as possible, it needs to be properly edited. Who is the right person to do that since unlocking it turns into an edit war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frontduck45 (talk • contribs)

Frontduck, that person could be you, or someone you convince, by laying out some Reliable Source evidence here. Just asserting that you are right and the other side is wrong won't do it. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

MelanieN, I am open to doing it. I supplied some reliable sources earlier, but will do it here. For one, the most reliable sources are from when it actually launched.

• Techcrunch - "Turntable.fm is a project of Seth Goldstein and Billy Chasen" [7]
• Wired - "Evolver.fm contacted stickybits co-founder Billy Chasen (pictured), whose company created Turntable.fm" [8]
• Observer - mentions co-founders Seth Goldstein and Billy Chasen [9]
• Only mentions of Joseph Perla are from 2021.Frontduck45 (talk) 19:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

So those are contemporary with the founding of Turntable, and they mention only those two people. That's helpful. I believe the naming of Perla that was being edit warred over did include references; might they have been talking about the current re-opening of the site rather than its original founding? -- MelanieN (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

MelanieN This years edits were trying to rewrite history, mostly to profit off of it (Their site is crowdfunding). It's fine to have a different section explaining 2021, but the history shouldn't be rewritten.Frontduck45 (talk) 14:34, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Frontduck45, how would you incorporate info about the reopening into the text about ita founding? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 14:49, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Rotideypoc41352, It makes the most sense as a new section after Closure, along with new article citations. I would also fix the first paragraph to cite co-founders that were listed as of 2011. Frontduck45 (talk) 15:45, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Frontduck45, could I kindly ask you please draft a set of proposed changes a la Wikipedia:Sample edit requests § Changing content? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:06, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Rotideypoc41352, sure, added below. feel free to editFrontduck45 (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Rotideypoc41352 and MelanieN, User Frontduck45 is Billy Chasen. User Ch5833 is Billy Chasen. IP 12.190.236.207 is Billy Chasen. Billy Chasen has an active US Federal lawsuit filed against him for, among other things, defamation of Perla. Perla has been in this Wikipedia entry from before 2020, until Billy Chasen started to actively and repeatedly remove his name, which many people including Wikipedia editors have corrected and cited. Billy Chasen is profiting from his new website at https://turntable.fm/about. According to Wikipedia rules, he should not be editing the page as he has, repeatedly, he ought not to be creating new accounts to cover those repeated edits, and he should not be removing factual, cited information which is true. Finally, Billy Chasen himself agreed to a portion of these points on Jan 14 with his edit which he made and let stand for weeks: 21:00, 14 January 2021‎ Ch5833 talk contribs‎ 16,277 bytes −124‎ “founding team is not the same as co-founder. Added other founding team members” - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turntable.fm&oldid=1000374028 FrontDuck45 and all of his other accounts ought to be immediately banned indefinitely. 01:18, 15 March 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:8500:817:2148:347B:4DA0:2E04 (talk) 00:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Context on the creators: https://link.medium.com/dB3Sp62oUeb From Billy Chasen himself agreeing to portions of the truth about the creators: https://link.medium.com/FS8knQ5oUeb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:8500:817:8425:D2AC:CF67:5BC1 (talk) 08:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2021

Turntable.fm

Available in	English
URL	www.turntable.fm
Registration	Required email confirmation account
Launched	May 2011 (2011-05)
Current status	Active (relaunch private beta, as of March 1, 2021)

Turntable.fm is a social media website that allows users to collaboratively stream music. The website was co-founded by Billy Chasen and Seth Goldstein in January 2011 after deciding their previous product, Stickybits, was not a viable business.

Turntable.fm was founded in January 2011 by Billy Chasen and Seth Goldstein, the co-founders of the company Stickybits.

Re-launch and Controversy

In 2021, Turntable.fm re-launched its service as a password protected website. A competing service run by a former Turntable.fm employee, Joseph Perla, also appeared online as a subscription service.. Turntable.fm carried a message as of January 2021 that stated Joseph Perla was VP of Engineering of Stickybits and left before the official launch of Turntable.fm while other recent articles have reported Joseph Perla as a founder of Turntable.fm. Frontduck45 (talk) 21:17, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 04:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Sir Joseph edits below.

• Information to be added or removed: Created by Billy Chasen and Seth Goldstein
• Explanation of issue: Change infobox to verifiable co-founders
• References supporting change:

• Information to be added or removed: Turntable.fm is a social media website that allows users to collaboratively stream music. The website was co-founded by Billy Chasen and Seth Goldstein in January 2011 after deciding their previous product, Stickybits, was not a viable business.
• Explanation of issue: Change first paragraph to verifiable co-founders.
• References supporting change:

• Information to be added or removed: In 2021, Turntable.fm re-launched its service as a password protected website. A competing service run by a former Turntable.fm employee, Joseph Perla, also appeared online as a subscription service. Turntable.fm carried a message as of January 2021 that stated Joseph Perla was VP of Engineering of Stickybits and left before the official launch of Turntable.fm while other recent articles have reported Joseph Perla as a founder of Turntable.fm.
• Explanation of issue: Add a new section to reflect 2021 and controversy.
• References supporting change: Frontduck45 (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, Rotideypoc41352, Rotideypoc41352, MelanieN - This page needs to be protected as it's clearly being manipulated by people close to it. Please review above changes as well as the edit war on main page. Frontduck45 (talk) 16:26, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Adding in factual changes, which were verified by early turntable.fm team, Summer Bedard and Seth GoldsteinFrontduck45 (talk) 12:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

N,Frontduck45 its very unclear what change you want to make. Before adding any further edit request, please go through How to make an edit request. Also, please disclose your COI properly as can be found in WP:COI and WP:PAID before you proceed with your next edit request, if you have any conflict of interest. Also, as Sir Joseph has mentioned, provide the edit request in proper format substitute X with Y while providing reliable sources. Twitter is not a reliable source. Chirota (talk) 23:02, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Paging Sir Joseph, Rotideypoc41352, MelanieN Chiro725 - This page is again getting modified by someone close to tt.fm, modifying the creators and the URL (which is literally in the page title, but was changed to tt.fm). Frontduck45 (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)