Talk:Tuscola Township, Michigan

Zip Codes

Discussion regarding content dispute moved from user talk page to more appropriate venue. older ≠ wiser 19:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Zip Codes are not communities by any stretch of the imagination, so stop junking up Tuscola Township, Michigan. Zip Codes are a function of the Postal Service and they are the number assigned to a Post Office and only indicates service areas of said post office. The U.S. Postal Service is a part of the U.S. National Government and have nothing to do with local community designations. Spshu (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The cities for those post offices have a significant presence within the township and should be mentioned. If you ask people where they live, a typical response is with the city/town portion of the postal address. Please stop removing this information. older ≠ wiser 16:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

They are mention in the info box so I am not removing the information, but to present this information as community is false. So is the typical response and we should not be faciliting false information. Spshu (talk) 17:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

People describing where they live is not false. The very definition of community is extremely fluid and is more than expansive enough to accommodate such information. older ≠ wiser

No in reference their's address's Post Office they tell people that they live in the town/city where the post office is located not where they actually live. You are saying (as writen in the Tuscola Township article) that these city exist further into Tuscola Township when they do not. Cities do have definited boundaries. *So according to your standard, some only lives in Tuscola if they go to the post office and opens a P.O. Box there, otherwise they live in the City of Vassar or Frankenmuth because of their post office location. People in Tuscola Township cannot go vote in these cities. Post Office only serve an area they don't definite it as it is part of the U.S. National Government, which only legally recognizes the States as local government. *So also to your standard that if I say I live in Hell, Michigan and I don't really because I am in another county all together, I still live in Hell, Michigan just because I said I live in Hell, Michigan? *So when the incorporated city's name is not the same as the post office name, where does one live? This is the case in Burton, Michigan for along time as they have Flint Post Office's zip code 485XX (and still do), but had until the 1980's or so have Flint as their "city" as instead of Burton. So according to you, Burton residence live in Flint not Burton. *While the definition of community is expansive, we can not use it here in that manner, this is an encyclopedia. We have to use a techinical use and definablity ie. city, townships, etc. * So in 1876, what was the name of the community now called City of Swartz Creek: Miller's Settlement, Swartz Creek (Post office) or Hamilton (train station)? Spshu (talk) 19:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

No, what is written about the cities only says that they are nearby (if you like it could be made more explicit that the municipality distinct from the township, though I think that already seems pretty clear). A city is not synonymous with the community of people that may self-identify with the place having the same name as the municipality. That is, a municipality has clearly defined boundaries. A community does not. Both of the cities have significance for the people living in the township.

So according to your standard, some only lives in Tuscola if they go to the post office and opens a P.O. Box there, otherwise they live in the City of Vassar or Frankenmuth because of their post office location. That does not reflect my position in any way whatsoever. So also to your standard that if I say I live in Hell, Michigan and I don't really because I am in another county all together, I still live in Hell, Michigan just because I said I live in Hell, Michigan? Well, this is just reductio ad absurdum. The possibility that some people might speak nonsense has no bearing on factual evidence such as postal delivery zones. A person who lives in Burton would likely say they live in Burton. I don't understand what you point is. I suppose it might be possible that they identify their location based on their postal code if such information were useful in any way to identify their location, though I doubt it. I'm really not sure what your point is actually. Identifying that the cities of Vassar and Frankenmuth have an area of significance that extends into the township through the postal codes in no way implies that people living in the township reside within those municipalities.

Re Swartz Creek, any of those names might have been used. I don't really see the relevance to the topic at hand. older ≠ wiser 20:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

All of the examples mostly had to do with post offices. People speak nonsense because they assume that the postal devilery zone defines their community, which is local. The post office cannot define a community as that is local, ie. state government, as it (the P.O.) is a part of the US government. So it is nonsense for anyone to use a US Government designation for a community thus they speak nonsenses when identifing with their Post Office. Some communities are incorporated (cities, village and township[to some extent]) and some are not, hence the use of the term unincorporated communities. If any of the areas out side of the incorporated communities really want to associated with them then they ask to be annex. And people do assume that the postal code implies that they do reside in those minicipalities per my own experience answer my home phone for my dad when he was Director of a minicipal department with people wanting services because they had a "City" address and their kids attend "City" school, sorry but the city had no such significance into the township. This is also why I don't use only the GNIS and refer to a State Department map for the populated place/unincorporated communities or even plats. The GNIS does even refer to the Post Offices as "populated place". There is a whole seperate category for them. Besides if you get into the undefinited or dificult to define area of community are you/we able to really indicated how many residents in a township is on Facebook, MySpace, or Yahoo!? Spshu (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Communities have no precise definition. People identify their community in a variety of ways, no one way is correct or incorrect. One of the ways people identify their community is by postal code. For you to declare a perfectly valid way for people to identify their community as nonsense is arrogant, to say the least. You continue to confuse municipal boundaries with the less precise boundaries of communities. The community that identifies with a city is generally much more extensive than the municipal boundary. To exclude such information is both misleading and very short-sighted. older ≠ wiser 21:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Zip Codes is not a valid way for people to identify their community as I have valid shown. How can you confuse a national government with local community? You have not shown anything that negates my argument. Its is arrogant on your part to hand wave away my arguments away and declare me to be arrogant. It is arrogant of the national government and yourself to cause confusion in where people live. It is misleading to include this information as a community. The minicipal boundaries were voluntarily drawn up of the areas consider the community or communities that wish to come together. You still don't seem to grasp incorporated versus unincorporated communities. Incorporated communities have chosen boundaries while unincorporated have continue to have vague boundaries. Falsely indicating those served by post office based in said incorporated community are a part of that incorporated community is misleading.Spshu (talk) 22:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You have shown no such thing. Whether you regard such identification as nonsensical is irrelevant. People do often identify community via post office and Wikipedia is about describing what is, not what you think it should be. I'm afraid it is you who continues to be confused. The statements in the township article are pretty clear about distinguishing between the incorporated municipal boundaries from the larger area served by the post office with the same name as the cities. older ≠ wiser 23:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't identify your neighborhoods by the name of the mail worker or route number, so your (or others) identification of on a community by the post office is not describing where they live. The GNIS FAQ states: "27.Why are there no ZIP Codes in the GNIS Database?

The GNIS contains named communities, both incorporated and unincorporated, but these communities do not necessarily correspond to ZIP Code areas. ZIP Codes are unofficial entities developed and maintained by the U.S. Postal Service solely for the purpose of delivering mail. It is not within the mission, purpose, or resources of the GNIS to maintain ZIP Code information.

ZIP Code areas are named (unless there is duplication) for the most prominent community in it or which it serves. Numerous ZIP Code areas contain multiple named communities within them, particularly in rural areas, and in urban regions, single large communities encompass multiple ZIP Codes. ZIP Code and community boundaries frequently do not correspond or correspond only roughly. Also, many communities for which the ZIP Code area is named are not incorporated, which means they do not have legal boundaries.

Therefore, the ZIP Code boundary in no way indicates a legal “footprint” of a named community, is not official for purposes other than delivering mail, and changes periodically. For additional information concerning ZIP codes, please contact the Postal Service." End of story and argument. Spshu (talk) 22:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC)