Talk:USS Fox (CG-33)

DLG

The hull designation "DLG" is not for "guided missile frigate". That hull designation is FFG, for Fast Frigate (Guided Missile). DLG is Destroyer Leader (Guided Missile). (Yes, that's a non-standard hull designation. But neither was Destroyer Escort.) It was these DLGs that were later reclassified CG, for Cruiser (Guided Missile). FFs, formerly DEs for Destroyer Escorts, and FFGs, formerly DEGs for Destroyer Escorts (Guided Missile), are still with us. See http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=1300&ct=4 - TCav 18:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to read the Naval History Center article, it says "USS Fox, a 5340-ton Belknap class guided missile frigate built at San Pedro, California, was commissioned in May 1966." You must be missing something about the way the ships were designed or planned, every DANFS article on the Belknaps calls them frigates, they can't all be typos. --Dual Freq 11:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

You might take a look at Destroyer Leader Association Website. The officers and crew that served on these vessels call them Destroyer Leaders. As when erroneous information gets posted on Wikipedia, it gets widely distributed throughout the internet, maybe some erroneous information got into the hands of someone at the Naval History Center, and now it has made its way onto Wikipedia.

I really didn't think that anyone would contest the change I made, changing the definition of the hull designation of DLG from "Frigate" to "Destroyer Leader", but here we are. If you go to the U.S. Navy's website [1] and search for "DLG", you will find a series of articles in which DLG is defined as either "guided missile destroyer" or "guided missile destroyer leader". There are only two pages that define DLG as "guided missile frigate" and one is a copy of the other. In addition, no one I know that ever served aboard a DLG (while it was a DLG) would have called their ship a "frigate". The only reference to them being Frigates in the Navy.mil website is on a handful of ship histories, but not all of them. I don't know who called them "frigates" but the Navy doesn't (and didn't) and the sailors that served on them don't (and didn't.) I also would like to call your attention to the USS Norfolk (DL-1), the USS Mitscher (DL-2), the USS John S. McCain (DL-3), the USS Willis A. Lee (DL-4), and the USS Wilkinson (DL-5). If a DL is a Destroyer Leader, why would someone think that a DLG wasn't a Guided Missile Destroyer Leader? -TCav 02:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC) See US Navy's Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships and United States Naval Historical Center articles at the following links:

• Second of the "double-end," Leahy-class guided-missile frigates to join America's sea-going arsenal, Harry E. Yarnell is equipped with Terrier surface-to-air missile launching tubes both fore and aft and ASROC anti-submarine missiles as well as more conventional torpedo tubes and guns.
• The third Gridley, a guided missile frigate, was launched by Puget Sound Bridge and Drydock Co. of Seattle, Wash., 31 July 1961
• USS Fox, a 5340-ton Belknap class guided missile frigate built at San Pedro, California, was commissioned in May 1966.
• In 1975, the Navy's guided missile frigates (DLG) were all reclassified as either guided missile destroyers (DDG) or guided missile cruisers (CG).
• USS HALSEY (DLG 23) was launched a guided missile frigate on 15 January 1962 at San Francisco Naval Shipyard.
• USS Coontz, a 4150-ton Farragut class guided missile frigate, was built at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Washington.
• The guided missile frigate, based at Norfolk, Va., cruises as a unit of Cruiser-Destroyer Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet. Josephus Daniels operated off the East Coast until departing the Virginia Capes 9 December for the Mediterranean.
• Home (DLG-30) was laid down 12 December 1962 by San Francisco Naval Shipyard, San Francisco, Calif.; launched 30 October 1964; ... After shakedown, the new guided missile frigate joined the Pacific Fleet and operated out of San Diego, a major addition to American sea power.
• William H. Standley (DLG-32) was laid down on 29 July 1963 at Bath, Maine, by the Bath Iron Works; ... While attached to the 6th Fleet, the guided-missile frigate witnessed the rapid build-up of Soviet naval strength in the Mediterranean basin and visited the ports of Palma de Majorca, Spain; Valetta, Malta; Naples, Italy; and Suda Bay, Crete.
• They were originally designated as DLG frigates (destroyer leaders; the USN use of the term frigate from 1950 to 1975 was intended to evoke the power of the sailing frigates of old), but in the 1975 fleet realignment, they were reclassified as guided missile cruisers (CG).

Multiple US Navy sources, obviously at some point the USN called them frigates. --Dual Freq 21:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This Google search shows all pages at navy.mil where both "frigate" and "DL" appear. This one shows all pages with both "frigate" and "DLG." This one shows all of the places on destroyerleaderassociation.org where the ships are referred to as "frigates." It appears that when the DL designation was first used in 1951 it meant "destroyer leader", but DLs were reclassified "frigates" in 1955. TomTheHand 01:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I served aboard the USS Coontz DDG 40, from 1975 to 1980 just after the change and I had read the ship's history while aboard. The designation DLG was for Destroyer Leader Guided Missile she was never classified as a Frigate and ships of her size with the 5"/54 and missile house reversed were considered Cruisers. A bit of history, they were larger than other destroyers at the time they were built which led to the DLG designation and there were a lot of FRAM conversions still in the fleet at that time. There is ample proof of her designations and at that time calling a 5,500 (full load) ton 535 foot long destroyer that outsized and outgunned a Charles F. Adams class destoyer a frigate would have gotten more than a few raised eyebrows. At one time they were considered some of the most powerful AA platforms that the US Navy had. There had been some playing around with what and what wasn't a frigate then they rationalised it and the designation was changed to DDG (Destroyer Guided Missile) Oh and I do have the DD214 to prove it. If you have questions about that ship in particular or that class I am probably as close as you are going to get to an eyes on expert. Tirronan 17:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

We've shown you that the USN called them frigates. There's not really much else to discuss. TomTheHand 18:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[[2]] One previous ship has been named Halsey (DLG/CG 23), a guided-missile destroyer leader, later classified a guided-missile cruiser. USS Halsey’s service (1963-1994) included eight battle stars for Vietnam Service, in addition to a Navy Unit Commendation and a Meritorious Unit Commendation, and participation in contingency operations in Korean waters (1969-1971) and in the Indian Ocean (1980).

[[3]]

America anchored at Valletta at 1000 on 5 April 1967 for a five-day visit. Weighing anchor on 10 April the carrier departed Malta to sail for task group operations in the Ionian Sea. She conducted an open sea missile exercise with the guided missile destroyers USS Josephus Daniels (DLG-27) and USS Harry E. Yarnell (DLG-17). Other operational aspects of the at-sea period consisted of routine day/night flight operations and a major underway replenishment with other units of TG 6 0.1. The following days saw the threat of civil war in Greece commencing with the military coup that ended parliamentary rule in that country. Although King Constantine II held his throne, the possibility of violence in the streets of Athens loomed as a potential threat to the American citizens suddenly caught up in the turmoil. It seemed that evacuation by ship might be necessary and Commander, 6th Fleet, ordered the formation of a special operations task force.

Well shoot as I said before the Navy played around with several types of designations gee do we have a discussion now? Personally I liked DDG it worked better. It really depended on the year you were talking about. Tirronan 01:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This discussion started because "frigate" was being removed from DL/DLG articles and it was claimed that the Navy never called them that. They plainly did call them that, among other things, and so people shouldn't go around ripping the word "frigate" out of articles. TomTheHand 14:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah except that they ended their lives as either DDG or CG depending on the type and in most cases had done so for 15 to 20 years, to my knowledge DD and its derivitives has only one designation in the U.S. Navy and that is destoyer. I don't approve of any ripping anything out of an article that is sourced its just that they served most of their lives as either Destroyer Leader Guided Missile or Destroyer Guided Missel when the Navy decided what their classification was. They were certainly called frigates at some point however I feel that Destroyer/Crusier is probably more accurate as that is how they ended up being classified. Tirronan 16:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Most articles explain that they started their lives as DLs (apparently destroyer leaders before 1955, frigates after 1955) and were redesignated as DDGs (destroyers) or CGs (cruisers) in 1975. If you run into an article that doesn't explain that, I have no problem with an explanation being added; I only have an issue with removing the word "frigate" wherever it's used to describe these ships. As shown above, the Navy did call them that, and so the word "frigate" shouldn't be deleted from all DL/DLG articles.

Some more Googling shows that "destroyer leader" only appears 17 times on navy.mil [4], while "frigate" and "dl" appear together 75 times [5] and "frigate" and "dlg" appear together 118 times [6]. It looks to me like the Navy described these ships as "frigates" far more often than "destroyer leaders". TomTheHand 17:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That is just the weight of the articles Tom, in the 1960's these ships were the DDG 51's of their day and relative stars of the fleet. In the mid 70's they were old warships just over 1/2 through their respective careers with the Spruance and FFG 7's hitting the water in large numbers and the Tico's on the drawing board, if memmory serves me correctly most of them were stuck in 1987. However we cut it they started out as Destroyer Leaders, got called frigates at some point and resolved to Destroyers for the last 17 years of life and we are calling them Frigates where I am guessing the friction is coming from. Tirronan 17:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem whatsoever with your logic: if a ship spent most of her career designated a cruiser or destroyer, go ahead and say "USS something was a guided missile destroyer of the United States Navy. She was constructed as a frigate, but was reclassified as a destroyer in 1975." I only have a problem with deleting "frigate" from every article and claiming that the ships were never called frigates. I know you're not the one who did that, and I think that your desire to give due weight to the designation that ships held for most of their lives is a good one. TomTheHand 18:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I never did change anything on the article, (I prefer reaching concenus before inserting a change) I happened to run across the USS Coontz article and since I served on her for 4 years it was of interest. I served under Cmdr. Howe, Nunn (was he ever a hoot), Martin (nice fellow that I knew the best of them), and Wiloz. So it was good to see names I had known and it brought up a lot of good memories. Anyway the offer stands that I know that class like the back of my hand and if you all need to know much about her or her sisters I can tell you anything from her steam turbines to the various weapons fits she went through in that period. I'll see if I can find anything about when they were changing the designations, in USN parlance DLG would be Destroyer Leader Guided Missile though they sure used Frigate at some point in the 60's I am guessing, and at some point they decided that Frigate would be used to designate ASW (Brooks, Knox, Perry) centered surface combatents (Coontz Class was an AAW with and SQS 23 outfit that was pretty outdated and with no towed array and no oganic helo capeability it didn't fit which I am assuming made them change to DDG. Let me ask around that is probably the other area of friction the DLG/Frigate thing and it would be interesting to know about it. When I do I'll insert it with inline citation. Tirronan 18:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being so hostile at first; this whole discussion started originally because someone removed the word "frigate" from every DL and DLG page and then, when reverted, posted the above message on something like a dozen talk pages. I misunderstood you and thought you were arguing in favor of removing the word "frigate." Looking at the Navy's own web sites, you can see that they did use the designation "frigate" at one time, so I didn't think there was anything to discuss.

Anyway, according to this link, the Navy changed the classification of "DL" so that it meant "frigate" instead of "destroyer leader" in early 1955. DL-1 through DL-5, commissioned in the early 1950s, started out as destroyer leaders and were reclassified frigates within a couple of years. They were all decommissioned before 1975, so they never became cruisers or destroyers. DL-6 through DLGN-40 were constructed after the 1955 decision to call DLs "frigates," so they were never officially designated "destroyer leaders." However, since "DL" plainly stands for "destroyer leader", they were still occasionally referred to that way.

During World War II, the Royal Navy dusted off the word "frigate" to describe small, cheap ASW escorts. However, we didn't do this; we called those ships "destroyer escorts." The exception was the Tacoma class frigate, which was a US-produced British design and hence used the British classification for such ships.

In the 1950s, to the United States Navy, "frigate" evoked images of our big sailing frigates. The 1975 reclassification changed our naming scheme, in which big, powerful escorts were "frigates" (DL) and little, cheap ones were "destroyer escorts" or "ocean escorts" (DE), to match the rest of the world's naming scheme, in which big, powerful escorts were cruisers or destroyers, and small, cheap ones were frigates. TomTheHand 19:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the definative list [[7]] which states that the DLG was a Guided Missle Frigate when Coontz and the following Belnap class were constructed, so you know the reason for the confusion a Destroyer squadron would have a Destroyer leader that was larger to house the Desron commander and staff, this wasn't actually done much in the US Navy but we all understood the function. The problem with the Coontz Class was that they were 2x heavier than the various Fram (ex Gearing) types still floating around and were encrouching on CL stataus by tonnage if not armor. The final designation was simply Destroyer Guided missile. Don't worry about being hostile I have been editing here for over 2 years (no idea I had been here this long) and lord have I had a few go arounds with Trolls. Also if you are interested I have upgraded the USS Constellation 1779 article from a start class you might find that interesting. I'm the one that has been upgrading the US BB articles also. Tirronan 19:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC) I'm the one that started all this. I served in the USN from 1971 to 1980. I served aboard a Destroyer Tender (AD-36), a Repair Ship (AR-5), and a Shore Intermediate Maintenance Activity (SIMASD). I have serviced many of the ships referred to in this discussion. I had never seen or heard of DLs or DLGs referred to as 'Frigates'. In the Google searches referred to on this page, most of the references to DLGs do use the term 'Frigate', but if you leave out hits to the Naval Historical Center pages, most of the hits are to pages that refer to DLs and DLGs as 'Destroyer Leader', and many of those pages are recently published articles. I have been discussing this issue with members of the Destroyer Leaders Association (who were surprised to learn that they served aboard 'Frigates', and were also disappointed to learn that Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for 'Destroyer Leader') and with the Naval Historical Center, and have chosen to remain silent here until those bodies respond to my inquiries to resolve this issue. I suspect that the DLA will come up with something, but I'm not holding my breath for a response from the NHC. TCav 11:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

You said:

In the Google searches referred to on this page, most of the references to DLGs do use the term 'Frigate', but if you leave out hits to the Naval Historical Center pages, most of the hits are to pages that refer to DLs and DLGs as 'Destroyer Leader', and many of those pages are recently published articles.

But that isn't true; if you leave out hits to the Naval Historical Center pages, there are 25 hits where DL and frigate are used on the same page [8], 20 hits where DLG and frigate are used on the same page [9], and 4 hits where the phrase "destroyer leader" appears [10]. It appears that the vast majority of reliable sources state that these ships were called frigates, and so there is absolutely no way that our articles will stop referring to them as such unless you can come up with sources more numerous or more reliable that refer to them otherwise. Word of mouth and your own personal experience cannot be used as sources. TomTheHand 12:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I served on the USS Coontz so I know how you feel but I researched the designation and its listed by the Navy that the DLG designation was in fact a Frigate. In those days and still USS Consitution, USS United States, and USS Constellation, and their exploits in 1812 still rang out loud with a proud tradition of US Frigates being the biggest and badest escorts out there. That was the reason then, today we think of the FFG7's and the Knox Classes, and they are inferior ships in the AAW arena and we modern types think of it as an insult. At least you know what the reasoning behind it and if you will follow my link [[11]] above you will see that the designation was correct. I joined the Coontz in 1975 so it rather set me back as well. Tirronan 18:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

75.51.187.56 (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Hi - I served on both the USS Jouett and USS Fox as an RD3 between 1968 and 1971, and everyone onboard (even their captains) back in those days referred to them as either DLGs or guided missle *Frigates*. Our normal job was not escort duty, but rather as radar picket ships, and normally steaming alone. In Vietnam the DLGs were the northern radar picket ships at a theoretical point in the gulf called Point Piraz, which was right off of N. Vietnam. --Ken Dine I concur. I served aboard Gridley from 1972 to mid-1976. Until she was redesignated as CG-21 in 1975, everyone knew her as a "guided missile frigate". On the other hand, my college roomate had done an ROTC tour aboard DL-1 and always referred to her as a "destroyer leader". I never heard anyone use that term in connection with a Leahy Class DLG. --WikiJEC (talk) 06:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

This thread has been quiet for awhile, but I thought I might add a little information from the "good old days." I was in the Navy from 1964 to 1975, and we called the DLGs frigates until they started talking about the redesignation to guided missile destroyers and cruisers as I was taking the last links off my short-timer's chain of pop top beer can pull tabs. That was the year a programmable pocket calculator cost the percentage of my income that would buy a well-equipped desktop today. I wouldn't recommend weighting web search statistics to determine pre-web nomenclature. The 1955 NAVPERS Warship Identification Manual description of the DL MITSCHER Class included: These ships formerly classed as destroyer leaders are now classed as frigates with the DL designation. Thewellman (talk) 06:54, 17 February 2014 (UTC)