Talk:Ulma family

B-class review

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 23:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Vogt

Why does this village have a Vogt instead of just a Wojt? Perfectly good Polish word. Unless it is a specifically German title imposed on them, but that's not indicated in the article Vogt. Vogt is not an English word, so is there a reason German should be given precedence over Polish? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 00:10, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it was called that way because the village was under German administration at this point in time. Just a guess, though. Nakonana (talk) 19:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

Recently the article Wiktoria Ulma was created. Clearly the tales of Józef and Wiktoria are inseparable, and it makes no sense to have a separate page about Wiktoria, per WP:FORK. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:53, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, merge.GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 19:55, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Edits by sockpuppet

I’m noting here for information that these edits to this article were made by a sockpuppet of a banned editor.

Given the volume of edits that have been made since, I haven’t (manually) reverted anything from that diff personally, for fear of accidentally messing something up in a topic area I’m not familiar with - I fear that the negatives could outweigh the benefits there. However, I’m noting here the fact that they are sock-edits for the sake of full transparency. (If any other editor wishes to manually revert the changes made, please don’t take this message as stopping you from BANREVERTing them! Equally though, this message is not intended to try to pressure anyone else to attempt to revert the edits.)

All the best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 19:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Stillbirth of the 7th child

@Jpmarques: Do you have any source that confirm stillbirth is the case of the 7th child? Nearly all sources state that child was not born at the time of Wiktoria's death. See also pl:Dyskusja:Dzieci Ulmów. Janezdrilc (talk) 19:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not the one who says this, but it was the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, which gave the final opinion on the martyrdom of the Ulma family. I'll leave the link to the note they gave on this subject: [1] Jpmarques (talk) 10:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I understand that what you have written is the official Catholic Church explanation. It does seem odd to me, though, that so-called “coffin birth” was not considered. Given Wiktoria was still pregnant when she was murdered, the hasty burial, and then the bodies being exhumed later, which is when the 7th child’s body was found outside her body, this seems a more realistic explanation. When someone dies, ALL natural functions stop; as such, being murdered would not cause someone to go into actual labor. The natural process of decomposition, however, could absolutely result in the fetus (who likely died in utero shortly after its mother) being found partially or entirely expelled from her body nine months later. Kltk78 (talk) 02:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Attributes

@Medusahead: the Ulma family, as simple laypeople, dedicated their lives to cultivation. In the second source I mentioned, the inclusion of several items related to the farm where they lived is mentioned, such as orchards and a beehive. It is also stated that Jozéf was a gardener, which is why they decided to add the scene to the official image presented at the beatification ceremony. I don't know if you must be following the news of the ceremony, but the reliquary of the beatification of the Ulma family displays in the background the farm where they lived, as a way of remembering the scene of their martyrdom. [2]

Wouldn't it be correct to add the farm as a general attribute of the family (since they were really farmers), since it was portrayed in official images, in the same way as the palm of Jozef's martyrdom? For example, St. Gianna Molla, who is portrayed with her attributes as a mother and doctor. Jpmarques (talk) 11:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a source that explicitly describes any of the attributes, or are you only basing the attributes off of a single image produced for a ceremony? If you have sourcing that says "they are artistically depicted as farmers" or something roughly approximating that, you can probably add "farm" (without linking the farm article). ~ Pbritti (talk) 11:56, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti "A number of Christian saints are traditionally represented by a symbol or iconic motif associated with their life, termed an attribute or emblem, in order to identify them."[3]

Read what the description of the OFFICIAL artistic image says:

"The beatification painting of the Ulma Family shows Józef and Wiktoria with their children against the background of a summer landscape. In the background on the left there is the family house of the Blessed, while in the background on the right there are beehives and an orchard, i.e. motifs referring to Józef Ulma's gardening interests."[4]

Justifying the passage in his biography:

"The Ulmas were farmers - they ran a farm of several hectares in Markowa, a village in Podkarpacie."[5]

Do you know what the word "official" means? Do you know that this is an image formulated by the proponents of the cause themselves? What more direct source than the author of the painting himself? What an unnecessary discussion about attributes! If the biography states that they were farmers, they will obviously not be portrayed as lawyers. This is obvious! Just look at the image in source 1 on the Aleteia website![6] Jpmarques (talk) 14:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jpmarques: Please refrain from battleground behavior. Please note that the Misyjne source is not cited in the article and is the only source that explicitly describes the artistic attributes. Observing a single image and drawing conclusions regarding typical motifs across multiple images is original research, so the Aletia source is insufficient to verify this information on its own. Please feel welcome to improve the sourcing by adding the Misyjne source. Please also keep Wikipedia's civility standards in mind when responding to other editors. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Then do what you want. Jpmarques (talk) 20:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course, the existence of saints' attributes is not disputed. Beehives (or other items associated with gardening) wouldn't be a problem either. Citing the "farm" as an attribute seemed somewhat odd.--Medusahead (talk) 07:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 11:20, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

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Józef and Wiktoria Ulma with Seven children → Ulma family – The page was recently moved to this name in a bold move, but was moved back by another editor, indicating this is a potentially controversial move and requires discussion. The current name fails WP:NCCAPS ("Seven" should not be capitalized), and is neither concise nor NPOV. WP is not required to follow the formal Catholic convention for the name given their recent designation as servants of God, which I think the current title tries to follow, and shouldn't if it results in awkward titles or has other MOS issues. The recent attempt at a move to this new name seems to me to be the best in terms of the article title criteria. FyzixFighter (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

+1. I wondered why it was shifted back from the shorter "… family" (and I was always bothered by the capitalized "Seven").--Medusahead (talk) 09:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per nominator. User:TRCRF22 (talk) 13:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support, "Ulma family" is definitely a WP:COMMONNAME. Marcelus (talk) 14:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.