Talk:Und es waren Hirten in derselben Gegend, BWV 248 II

Flauto traverso

I find it irritating to see this used in an anglicized plural ("flauto traversos"). Why not just "flutes", which is the common English designation? Jmar67 (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I know to little about Italian and French vs. English instrument names. Key thing is to avoid the impression that Bach wrote for the metal flutes which we have as Western concert flutes and which you still hear in concerts and ecordings. "Transverse flute"? I don't know how common the use is. To have an Italian plural for the flutes, but an Enlish plural for the oboes seems sort of inconsistent. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:38, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

ps: I wonder if transverse flute would even mean flauto traverso, and not more generally any flute blown sideways. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Just write traverso or traversos (without the "flauto") on first mention, and without the wikilink on subsequent usage. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:53, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry that I see this only now. I think that "flauto traverso" would be closer to "flute" which the average reader might know. Nikkimaria uses "transverse flute". I am not happy with "Tra" for an abbreviation which has no flute "f". Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Note that these are currently (in our wiki-verse) not the same:

• transverse flute goes to a quite problematic short article, which should probably be merged to the Western concert flute article
• traverso goes to the "baroque"-related section of an extended article containing the history of the Western concert flute.
• flauto traverso goes to the same place as the latter. Note, however, that that entire extended article does not contain the word "flauto": not once, so I'd rather avoid it (the expression, and the link).

--Francis Schonken (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Sigh, perhaps that article should change. Looking at the Carus edition, all instruments in the music are given in Italian, using Italian plurals while on the tilte page, they are simply called "flutes". Where may we have something to make the connection? Baroque instruments? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

To make things more complicated, Bach Digital has "traverse flutes" in the English version. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Und es waren Hirten in derselben Gegend, BWV 248 II/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 08:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Opening statement

In reviews I conduct, I may make small copyedits. These will only be limited to spelling and punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. For replying to Reviewer comment, please use  Done,  Fixed,  Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or  Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. I will be reviewing this article as the Coordinator of WikiProject Germany. —Vami♜_IV♠ 07:08, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I have previously reviewed and passed several articles by Gerda, who I consider myself in good terms with. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this. You will have seen that is was sort of a Christmas gift, which Francis Schonken (Bach, citations) and Jmar67 (copy-edits) improved greatly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• responsible for church music at four churches in Leipzig, The first "church" here is redundant and should be removed.

 Done

History

• Its first cantata, Jauchzet, frohlocket! Auf, preiset die Tage, BWV 248 I, Italicize.

 Done

Movements

• There are several uncited sentences in this section.

  You are right. I'll go and look for a score to cite those. What I don't know to find is a source for the angel sometimes a soprano, but remember that I heard it that way. (It was there before I started. I'll drop it if I can't find a supporting ref.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:31, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

  Vami IV, I now used the (online available) music by Carus, giving the page numbers of where the movements begin. Angel not found yet, sorry. Perhaps later today. Need fresh air first ;) - Sorry about the delay, - I am determined to improve articles of people who recently died, and for the last days, there was always one or even two, including giants such as Penderecki which made me write a new article on his Credo. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

  Works for me, just as long as you respond to the review so it appears in my watchlist. The Which? and Citation Needed tags need to go for the article to pass, of course. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 08:01, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  I removed the Soprano thingy, - no solid source. I will stay in the Main article, I'm afraid ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  Also works for me. Good luck with finding a (credible) source. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:10, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

• ABA' What's this apostrophe doing?

  Its standard notation in classical, marking sections by letters, and using the apostroph for "similar but changed". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  Ah. Is there a wikilink that can be made for that, to avoid future confusion? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:10, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  I don't know. Sonata form is linked: exposition - development - recapitulation, the latter similar but not same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  Is the mark a retake? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 12:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  No. I found something at Musical form#Labeling procedures. See that some writers use superscript numbers, but haven't seen that yet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:03, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  I think it's super^duper. AAAAA I just noticed "ternary form", that should be linked. OK, use the supertext (copy: ), link that labelling procedure, so we can close this review. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

  I linked ternary, and put the apostrophe up high. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

• Repeated citation: [...] as Dürr notes.[16] Each section is in again three groups, taking the analogy to the sonata form further: string music, as a first theme, is followed by oboe music as a second theme and combined music as the closing group.[16]

  Not sure I understand the problem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  There's no citation in the way, so there's no need for the first one to be there. The first one's redundant and just soaking up bytes. –♠Vami_IV†♠

  OK, will do, - for DYK, they always ask the opposite: ref right behind the fact ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

  • Another repeated [16] here: "Und alsobald war da bei dem Engel" ("And suddenly there was with the angel"),[16] telling of the heavenly hosts.[16]
  • Another repeat: pedal point.[49] The third section, about goodwill, has lively themes full of coloraturas.[49]

Notes

• Appears this section survived the unfortunate purging of the angel sonata.

  no more --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:00, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

GA progress

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.